Chanllange: Holy Roman Empire doesn't collaps

what needs to happen to make it possible for the Holy Roman Empire to survive longer than it did? Is there anyway for it to last to the modern era and possible be a great power?
 
Well there are quite a lot quite different chances for it to avoid its loss of significance.
There is also the possibility that it might have survived as the meaningless hull it was in 1807.

But which period do you have in mind for a PoD?
 
The best way would be to prevent the Interregnum, which greatly increased the power of the german nobles.
Either Friedrich II mangages to take Rome or at least prevent the escape of the pope, or the negotiations between him and Innozen IV are succesful, which is not that unlikely as they had already agreed on a treaty when the city of Viterbo rebelled and the conflict started again.
 
Depends on what you mean;

The Holy Roman Empire surviving as a trans-national EU-type thing
or
Basically Germany Über Alles with a large non-German minority.
 

Eurofed

Banned
The best way would be to prevent the Interregnum, which greatly increased the power of the german nobles.
Either Friedrich II mangages to take Rome or at least prevent the escape of the pope, or the negotiations between him and Innozen IV are succesful, which is not that unlikely as they had already agreed on a treaty when the city of Viterbo rebelled and the conflict started again.

I eagerly agree that the Hohenstaufen victory is one of the best, if not the best, divergence point to make the HRE a big success story. But there are even better PoDs to boost them. One can make Frederick I Barbarossa live a little longer and back from the Crusader with the prestige of the liberator of Jerusalem, which boosts the already remarkable successes of himself and his son even more. Moreover, let his son skip disease and survive to a ripe long age, according to the natural longevity of the line. He'll have Germany, Italy, and Sicily pacified and under control by the 1220s, with no regency and Welf civil war undoing most of his work, and the HRE turned an hereditary monarchy by end 12th century. His son Frederick II shall be educated to think of himself a proper German-Italian emperor instead of a Sicilian king and shall put his unquestioned brilliance to the task of finishing the basic centralization work started by his grandfather and father. He dies after a long reign that sees particularist resistance of German and Italian nobles and city-states increasingly beaten down, and the theocratic Papacy marginalized, and hands over a stable empire to his son and granson that finish the job.

Here is a mini-TL and map by yours truly that tries to give some basic development to this concept.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Depends on what you mean;

The Holy Roman Empire surviving as a trans-national EU-type thing
or
Basically Germany Über Alles with a large non-German minority.

Well, the two conditions kinda blur into each other, and were a fitting description in different stages of the Empires history. As it concerns the Hre proper, as opposed ot its Carolingian predecessor, it mostly diverged on whether Italy is in the mix or not, given that even at its Hohenstaufen best, when the HRE went into union with the Kingdom of Sicily, the HRE was never better than pre-1945 Greater Germany, Low Countries, Italy, Swizerland, and Bohemia-Moravia. A bit too little to call it an EU equivalent, even if such a centralized empire would have totally dominated the European scene (just think of how many Middle Age European economic strongholds a centralized early HRE would have had at beck and call). However a surviving Carolingian Empire, with France in the mix, would have fit the bill for a proto-EU. After all, it's where Europe got half of its cultural precedent for its political integration, the other one being the Romans.

But as an unshamed Europhile, I think that the AH scenario is much more interesting if we pick the first type HRE. Success of the Ottonian or Hohenstaufen centralization attempts with the right dynastic PoDs are certainly quite plausible and fascinating scenarioes for making the HRE a success sorty as big as the Western monarchies.
 
I'd say that if, for whatever reason, Prussia collapses in the 7-years war or due to Napoleon, and at the same time the French revolution happens anyway (which is not that unlikely), then the Austrians would have reintroduced the Empire in the Congress of Vienna. Obviously, Prussia became a great power and couldn't accept a Habsburg overlord, even only in title. So without Prussia, we'd likely have something similar to OTL German Confederation, but the Austrians would get some title, too.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Seven Year War aren't a bad POD.

So let's say that Austria receive Silesia back and Mark and Cleve

France get some border modification in the Austrian Netherlands, and most of their colonies back

Russia get (East) Prussia, which they trade with Poland for the territories Russia got in the first partipation.

Sweden get Prussian Vorpommern and Bermen-Verden

Saxony get the Kottbus enclave and support from Austria and Russia to make the Polish throne heritable.

Brandenburg has just cut down a notch, and Saxony has been strengthen.


After the war we Peter becoming Emperor of Russia, he turn toward his obsession with the downfall of Denmark and allies with Sweden (which hasn't been alienated by his peace with Prussia), the Russian-Swedish alliance defeat Denmark and the Oldenburgs are forced to give up Schleswig-Holsteinto Russia while Sweden receive Norway against giving up Bremen-Verden. Peter are couped a few years later (for rather stupidly having strengthen Sweden). After the coup Frederick August are granted the Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein (and Bremen-Verden). With that Denmark and Russia are out of Germany.

A few years down the road we see the War of Bavarian succesion happening. Through instead of Brandenburgm, Saxony turn out the leader of the anti-Austrian alliance. Of course Saxony even a strengthen in union with Poland one are no Prussia, and the war get dirty, Catherina invades Poland, France join the Austrian side against gaining Flandern. UK join against the French. The war turn into another Seven Year War through a little shorter, with the same result as the first (in TTL) one. France receive Western Flandern (split west of Antwerp), while Austria receive Bavaria and Oberpfalz, the Wittelsbach receive Luxembourg, easten Flandern, Austrian Brabant and Berg-Jülich. Russia receive the areas of Poland they gained in the second partipations.
Saxony are force to give up the Polish throne to a Russian puppet and George III of UK are forced to give up Hanover to his younger brother William. Beside that UK are forced to recognise the independence of the North American colonies.

Years later The French revolution turn less bloody (more succes in the wars more popular King) and a made into a constitutional monarchy. Europe stay peaceful until the War of Palatine Succesion in 1799. Which the Louis of France try to use to regain popularity to reestablish Absolutism in France. The war turn into a bloody mess with French armies march through Germany, and the German Prince join behind the Emperor. After year of War a peace are reached France receive Brabant, East Flandern (except Anwerp which are given up to Netherlands) and Liege but give up Elsass. The Austria receive Sundgau, while the old states are restablish in Elsass, Pfalz are given to the Emperors (Joseph II) nephew Charles of Teschen.

The Empire are reformed and the Imperial Circles are fully reestablish in most of Germany* (through for some circles they follow the bigger state border**), more or less with the power of the later Länders. The crown are made fully heritable, but all the new Circles gain voting right in the new Parlament. Which gain control over taxation and internal customs.

*Oldenburg and Vorpommern aren't made part of any circles because of their foreign ownership.

**Schleswig-Hostein, Brandenburg, Hanover and Saxony.
 
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