Champions of Dixie: The CSA Wins (Redux of The Sun Never Rises: If the Confederacy Won)
- Thread starter PGSBHurricane
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Actually, I have a couple sources right now. None of which are overly military related, though, as that's not my strong suit and the focus ITTL is more on culture and politics.
The statutes at large of the provisional government of the Confederate States of America, from the institution of the government, February 8, 1861, to its termination, February 18, 1862, inclusive; arranged in chronological order : Confederate States
At head of title: By authority of Congress
archive.org
Ficboy
Banned
I think you should study military matters as much as culture and politics if you are going to have a successful timeline.Actually, I have a couple sources right now. None of which are overly military related, though, as that's not my strong suit and the focus ITTL is more on culture and politics.
The statutes at large of the provisional government of the Confederate States of America, from the institution of the government, February 8, 1861, to its termination, February 18, 1862, inclusive; arranged in chronological order : Confederate States
At head of title: By authority of Congressarchive.org
While it's going to take a backseat to the other two, I still will study more about military matters when I'm less busy down the road. Thanks for the suggestion.
Hmm Given Palmerston's personal detestation of slavery i doubt whether the UK would come anywhere near a treaty that did that, at best he would make sure to distance himself from it. .
I personally used the “returning of the runaway slaves” thing as a way of the victors writing the justice. Also it can not be stated enough that slavery was THE backbone of the Southern economy so even a small percentage of slaves running away could drastically affect the supply and price of cotton. As for why the US and Britain go along with it? Part of it is to play nice with the winner (in Britain’s case) but also because it’s very unrealistic that all of them would be returned and plausibly not even a majority of them so they just play along with it. Hence, the monetary compensation. On the other hand, keep in mind that the Emancipation Proclamation isn’t issues ITTL so there aren’t THAT many runaway slaves. As for Lee not being president, likely wouldn’t run for President because he wasn’t a very political person IOTL so even with a CSA victory I can’t see much changing there without a ton of outside pressure.
Thomas1195
Banned
Industrial slavery model would hit the wall quickly because more advanced industries were operated by skilled craftmen at the time. Worse, further industrialization from 1870s (electricity, chemical) onwards would be based on systemic scientific research and professional education.
Thomas1195
Banned
Btw, the Empire of Mexico, which was forced on Mexico by foreign bayonets, would have realistically crumbled once foreign support evaporated.
Proof against this notion of yours has already been given to you in multiple threads before. Just read Maximilian, Mexico, and the Invention of Empire by Kristen Ibsen and Maximilian and Carlota: Europe's Last Empire in Mexico by M. M. McAllen or The Crown of Mexico: Maximilian and His Empress Carlota by Joan Haslip.
Around half of the population was supportive of the monarchy, with a third apathetic with the last fifth more anti+monarchy.
And this probably wouldn’t be majorly opposed in the Upper South nor Texas and Louisiana as that’s where many blacks in the Deep South went during the Great Migration and found industrial factory jobs there OTL. And they were open to some degree of industrialization anyway during the Civil War.
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Sorry for the delay. I've been struggling with how the Franco-Prussian War would be effected, as 20,000-40,000 French troops who were in Europe OTL wouldn't be in Europe ITTL, thus potentially affecting the decision to go to war in the first place.
Good start. Watching. One point as the CSA constitution took the amendments to the us constitution and wrote them in as Articles it would be the 1st amendment not the 13th.
Watched. Interesting to see how the butterflies will start affecting things.
But yes I agree that Maryland and Missouri wouldn’t join the Confederacy. It would defang the USA too unrealistically and Confederate hold on that was tentative at best.
Oklahoma going to the CSA I can see as the Union might just want to get rid of the Native Americans there. But Arizona I don’t think so. Confederate soldiers didn’t conquer the territory.
As for Kentucky, I’m not a huge fan of it going to the Confederacy. The Confederates had a claim, yes, but unless they conquer it I don’t see it going Confederate but that’s just me. I like the idea of a “weak CSA” that won independence because both sides were exhausted and the Union deemed it not worth the effort but not a war of conquest.
But overall I’ll be watching with interest.
But yes I agree that Maryland and Missouri wouldn’t join the Confederacy. It would defang the USA too unrealistically and Confederate hold on that was tentative at best.
Oklahoma going to the CSA I can see as the Union might just want to get rid of the Native Americans there. But Arizona I don’t think so. Confederate soldiers didn’t conquer the territory.
As for Kentucky, I’m not a huge fan of it going to the Confederacy. The Confederates had a claim, yes, but unless they conquer it I don’t see it going Confederate but that’s just me. I like the idea of a “weak CSA” that won independence because both sides were exhausted and the Union deemed it not worth the effort but not a war of conquest.
But overall I’ll be watching with interest.
Arizona and Maryland aren't part of the Confederacy so you don't have to worry about that. Indian Territory is pretty likely, particularly if left to popular sovereignty, because the Five Civilized Tribes, who held the most influence there, supported the CSA. Kentucky is a battleground that that's heavily divided and go either way but I have them join the CSA because I can see very well see Kentucky switching alleigences if it looks like the CSA is going to win pre-Gettysburg. Plus, it was technically already admited as a CSA state so they had a rational argument for Kentucky. Missouri is easily the most contentious issue on both sides in-universe and I can understand why people think it should be with the Union.
Missouri going to the CSA is mostly a case of victors justice (pre-Gettysburg, mind you) on the grounds that it was technically admitted to the CSA as a state (with its government operating from Neosho), and before Kentucky at that, with seats in the Confederate Congress. The CSA only gets the Southern third of Missouri, using the Osage, Missouri, and Meramec Rivers as the boundaries. Kansas City and St. Louis are with the Union so it won't be defanged too much heading forward. I understand the issue of Missouri slaveholders being along the Missouri River but it is something I went back and addressed, plus the area of Cape Girardeu was a small slaveholding center so can kind of make sense depending on how you look at it.
South Missouri will eventually go back to the Union and re-added to Missouri
In your original post, I remember you addressing the matter of the US returning runaway slaves to the CSA. Once again, that's mostly a case of victors justice, but I revised it so that for every slave unable to be returned, former masters will be compensated for the monetary value the slaves were purchased for. As for Haiti, you're correct that the US recognized it OTL before the Emancipation Proclamation was even issued and I will fix that but I don't think it's all that sensible considering the number of runaway slaves probably doesn't reach six figures ITTL (could be wrong though). As much as I want this to be more realistic than my initial attempt, I recongize that it's never going to be 100% realistic, partly because it's only speculation but also partly because of plot armor, which even some of the best written TLs on here (a la AANW) have. The key is to find a balance between realism and plot armor.
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I think I've just developed a solution to what to happen with the Franco-Prussian War. It'll be a surprise, though.
Kentucky is the most likely of any of the states that didn't "technically" secede winding up in the Confederacy or seceding in an alternate timeline. It had more Confederate units and soldiers than any other border state and a very pro-Confederate governor at the time, its really only the legislature and Polk's incompetence that kept it in the Union, and that's disregarding the fact that KY was technically, from the Confederate standpoint, already in the CSA with its pro-Confederate split government. It's also really the only "border state" that was/is culturally Southern. Maryland and Delaware are more Mid-Atlantic and Missouri is a mix of Western/Midwestern, with southern influences around its bootheel and in Little Dixie.
I've often wondered if Grant moving into Kentucky before the CSA would've caused a different outcome.
I'm almost done with this next part which should be out by this weekend. Just need to work out a couple details.