Challenge US Civil war Federal Problems

Free Lancer

Banned
Like i Said Viet Cong Style if the war Starts Over the Trent Affair that Means there are low Numbers of British Troops in Canada while Major British Forces will be put to Sea its going to take a long time to they get to the US Allowing the US to Swich to a Defensive war turning Importent Citys into Forts and Building up new Armys. The US will Pick the Battles they know they can win Avoid Major Combat Against the British or French Armies they cant Beat and Instead Conduct a Guerrilla warfare against them, the US does not need To beat the UK or French or both they need to hold out to Convince the People of the UK and the French this is going to be a Very long and Bloody war
 

67th Tigers

Banned
As for Kelly. Historical opinions of him are all over the map. But this doesn't change the fact that the US already produced about 13,000 tons of steel in 1860. Much of this is inferior to Bessemer steel but some is Bessemer steel. The US was the China of its day, it didn't really pay all that much attention to patents and copyrights, which alas irritated the crap out of Britain, but allowed the US to catch up technology wise very quickly in several key areas.

I stopped before that other thread went out of control. Yes, the US did produce about that much steel, and there were 13 active steel furnacesin the US (but no steel mills, which is specific to bessemer steel). However it was cemented steel of various grades*. This is low carbon steel which is perfect for cutting tools and springs, but too expensive (and brittle) to use for much else. Bessemer steel isn't quite in production in 1861.

* Most US steel ended up as shear-steel, that is blister steel that has been reforged several times to even out the carbon content. Steel casting is the other technology that took off in the US in the 1860's, with William Metcalf producing the first US crucible steel in the 1860's.
 

Free Lancer

Banned
im not saying its Perfect the US will need to do one of two things to continue the Against the South. the US will Need to make Quick Gains in the South to Ease up the Pressure on the North and make War in the South a lot Easier in the Latter Years. or they will Attack North Against the British Ports and Garrisons there a Victory there in the Beginning of the war will Destroy the Illusion that the US Will Fall Quick.

but as the war Drags on it will hurt the US more and more in the long run.
 
I stopped before that other thread went out of control. Yes, the US did produce about that much steel, and there were 13 active steel furnacesin the US (but no steel mills, which is specific to bessemer steel). However it was cemented steel of various grades*. This is low carbon steel which is perfect for cutting tools and springs, but too expensive (and brittle) to use for much else. Bessemer steel isn't quite in production in 1861.

* Most US steel ended up as shear-steel, that is blister steel that has been reforged several times to even out the carbon content. Steel casting is the other technology that took off in the US in the 1860's, with William Metcalf producing the first US crucible steel in the 1860's.


Agreed, though if memory serves I'm pretty sure a couple of the sources I unearthed listed about 4,000 tons of that 1860 figure being Bessemer steel. Most likely if this is the case it is "illegal" steel being made without obtaining the patent rights. The Bessemer method was well enough known by the 1850s that it could easily have been copied without obtaining the proper permission. In war time this is doubly true, but difficult to do in a short war.

Either way steel was being produced in the US, which runs counter to the initial claims made to the contrary.

Don't get me wrong...if forced to bet I'd put all my money on Britain, France and the CSA, but its not ASB for the Union to pull out some kind of victory (Say Canada in exchange for losing the slave states). Stranger things have happened in the history of warfare. Either way it still sucks for Britain in the long run, what with being tied to a semi-feudal slaveocracy while one of its largest potential trade and investment partners longs for revenge. The cost of defending Canada alone over the next several generations will be a huge financial drain.

Benjamin
 
The British army in 1862 in the UK, reinforced by the Canadian militia, comes to nearly 250K which isn't that much smaller than the entire Union army at this time and most Union forces are tied down in the war against the CSA so there is no chance of a major invasion of Canada, successful or otherwise, without effectively abandoning the war against the CSA.

Abandoning the war against the CSA defeats Lincoln's whole purpose and will still leave most of the Union forces tied down unless he's willing to not only accept loss of the CSA but of a CSA including the border states of Kentucky, West Virginia, Missouri and Maryland.

As for the prospects of the Union suddenly winning quick gains in the south at a time when southern morale is skyrocketing, northern morale collapsing and the CSA no longer has any shortages of equipment and material while the USA is feeling what will soon be a crippling pinch and frantically redeploying existing forces away from the CSA...
 
benjamin said:
13,000 {long or short?} tons of steel in 1860

Off the top of my head I thought it was around 11,000 long tons in 1860 or 1861. I was under the impression that none of it was Bessemer steel. A quick conversion, if the above figure were in US short tons then the figure in long tons would be ca. 11,600 so it is quite likely we are actually talking about the same figure.

13,000 short tons is a very small figure for production. Consider:

For a modest cylindrical converter with an internal charge capacity of ca. 6ft high by 3ft wide we can calculate the charge mass. This is a practicable size for a vessel for pneumatic the steel production. Thus the steel produced per charge is of the order of:

2 m x pi x (0.5 m)**2 x 7850 (approx. density of steel) = 12.3 tonnes = 0.9842 x 12.3 = 12.1 long tons

The converter can be run a number of times each day. Thus assuming a very modest single converter working just twice a day and fifty weeks a year we get an annual capacity of:
2 x 12.1 * 50 * 5 = 6050 long tons per annum

benjamin said:
Agreed, though if memory serves I'm pretty sure a couple of the sources I unearthed listed about 4,000 tons of that 1860 figure being Bessemer steel.


As you can see this production figure is less than the yearly output of a single modest Bessemer converter.

It is worth noting that the Kelly converter (which didn’t seem to work) and other early American Bessemer converters are much smaller than this. This may have been due to the amount of iron required to construct one or it may have been simply that you get the hang of something before you go into full production I don’t know. What I do know is that American production of Bessemer steel is tiny, then modest until several years after the American Civil War when it takes off exponentially.

I see no way in which the USA could develop a significant Bessemer steel production capacity whilst at war with the British. They knew how to do it but they did not have the expertise in using the technology to make it work practically. They can learn this but it takes time. It also takes investment, manpower and an uninterrupted supply of iron ore, all of which are likely to be in short supply if the USA is at war with perfidious Albion.

67th Tigers said:
However it was cemented steel of various grades


An interesting point about this is much of the cemented steel produced is blister steel. The feed stock for blister steel is very pure iron. In the 19th Century the major source of pure iron for blister steel production is Sweden. Swedish bar iron was exported throughout the world as the feed stock for blister steel production. The USA brought it, the British brought it everyone brought it, it was the material of choice. Even though the British produced good quality bar iron of their own they still preferred Swedish stock for blister steel production. Thus in the event of war with Britain and because of the blockade the USA won’t even be able to produce the small quantity of non-Bessemer steel it did Ante-bellum (or more likely it uses locally procured feed stocks and quality plummets).
 
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Free Lancer

Banned
the Civilians of the US Northern Borders are not going to form there Militias? to Increase the Size of the State Guard, Volunteers for new Armys there are not going run away from the fighting and let there homes and Stock that the spent there Lives working on be destroyed they will fight.

the year of 1862 all of the Border States Are in the Unions Camp.

the last one, only in the East was the South winning, in the West it is a Deferent story dont need to win in the East as much as you need to in the west cut the South in half with the Mississippi River.

and like i said Before the only British Force in the Americas is in Canada the RY and there Armys are not going to get to the US in a day from England.
 
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