Max Sinister
Banned
Charles d'Anjou is successful with the 7th crusade in 1270, Tunisia is incorporated in Sicily.
My Chaos TL also has an Italianized Tunisia.
My Chaos TL also has an Italianized Tunisia.
Challenge: Tunisia just as Italian as Sicily
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
Two possibilities:
1. The Norman Kingdom of Sicily actually conquered much of Tunisia and held it c. 1130-1160. However I doubt even if they held it longer that the culture would change, given the Normans themselves did not become overly Italianized.
2. Italy gets it act together earlier, has a speedier unification, and goes on an imperialist binge. If you think about it, Tunisia is a natural target for Italy; I'm honestly a bit surprised France got it instead of them.
1. The Norman Kingdom of Sicily actually conquered much of Tunisia and held it c. 1130-1160. However I doubt even if they held it longer that the culture would change, given the Normans themselves did not become overly Italianized.
2. Italy gets it act together earlier, has a speedier unification, and goes on an imperialist binge. If you think about it, Tunisia is a natural target for Italy; I'm honestly a bit surprised France got it instead of them.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I think that's wayyyyyy too late - by then the population is entirely Muslim. I think a better solution is to have the Muslims stopped there - it's not outside the realm of possibilty, the area held out pretty long - a bit more energy to the defense and it might have retained it's connection to the Christian world, and separated from the center of Byzantine power could have drifted into the Italian orbit. I don't know what language was spoken there - I assume the educated classes spoke Latin?
This kind of TL pleases me greatly. To say the least, a Norman-Sicilian North Africa is a challenge, but possible. Have the large North African Caliphate (who's name escapes me) shatter, and have some of the admirals of Palermo pick up the pieces. The area could slowly become Italianized overtime.
And AHP, there were North African Christians, albeit a very tiny minority. One of the Admirals of Palermo was named Philip of Mahdia*, IIRC
*A town in Tunisia.
In the 1870's Italy was making moves on Tunisia, Which is why France jumped in and took Tunisia in 1883, If they hadn't italy would have gotten it in the late 1880's,
If so I doubt that Italy would have gotten Lybia.
Given the same ammout of investment of Time and People, that went into Lybia, and starting earlyier..............
If so I doubt that Italy would have gotten Lybia.
Given the same ammout of investment of Time and People, that went into Lybia, and starting earlyier..............
Leo Caesius
Banned
Was this because he was from Mahdia or was it because he captured the city of Mahdia?
Max Sinister
Banned
@Abudl: Depends. The Byzantines also managed to rechristianize Anatolia, remember? In said Chaos TL, North Africa is also (partly) rechristianized - and many Muslims become Spanish slaves 
instead of blacks.
instead of blacks.I've actually played around quite a bit with the concept of an Italo-Norman empire, both in Africa and on the Levant (they almost got the Principality of Antioch). However any scenario would be short lived, as I can't see them holding them for any longer than another century, even assuming the Hauteville dynasty survives.
But who knows? Maybe someone more creative or knowledgable then me can come up with something.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
@Abudl: Depends. The Byzantines also managed to rechristianize Anatolia, remember? In said Chaos TL, North Africa is also (partly) rechristianized - and many Muslims become Spanish slaves
? When did the Byzantines re-Christianize Anatolia? After Manzikert they steadily lost it. There were small parts of it between the Taurus and anti-Taurus that were regained prior to Manzikert, but these were depopulated no-man's-lands.
It's just completely unrealistic to assume a thoroughly Muslim population like Tunis' can be converted to Christianity. I can't think of a single example of this happening anywhere. The only option would be to massacre or expel the entire population, and you'd never find enough settlers to make the territory viable. Much of it would revert to waste and it would the plpayground of Berber raiders.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
First of all, he was Muslim, second, he was from Sicily, not Tunis (he was a eunuch, left over from the Arab administration) and third, he was executed by Roger as part of a purge of the remaining Muslim elements at court.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/history/studentlife/e-journal/Stonehouse_Aidan.pdf
Yes, I read your Italo-Norman empire thread. Interested in some kind of collaboration?
Firstly, yes and no. He converted to Islam later in his life, but started out as a Greek Cristian. Secondly, I didn't know his birth place. I had just assumed that the 'of Mahdia' part meant 'from Mahdia'
Third is just flat out wrong. The king grew up with Muslim tutors and spoke Arabic fluently. He trusted the Muslim advisers more than his fellow Normans. Why would Roger himself, who's courtiers and high administrators were Muslims, who ruled over a country which relied on its Muslim population for its continued wealth and prosperity, want to initiate a purge of the Muslims of his government?
It is true that Philip of Mahdia was executed, but most probably by ambitious Latin courtiers (seeing as he held the highest political office short of the throne)
Another possible idea: how about either Venice and/or the Knights of St John getting involved? A Maltese acquaintance of mine said that until Mussolini a lot of Maltese considered themselves to be Italian. So what about Malta AND Tunisia being in the same boat, compounded by the fact that the Maltese languageis is a hybrid of Maghreb Arabic and Sicilian, with some English words thrown in and a Latin alphabet?
Actually, that thought just occurred to me. I think between the two of us, we could come up with something worthwhile.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Sorry, but Wikipedia is, as usual, incomplete and wrong, and based on old and outdated sources. I've studied this subject. Your Philip was possibly born a Christian, but as a eunuch in a Muslim court he would have been castrated and converted as a child. Did you read the document I linked? Roger used a lot of Muslim officials because he needed a qualified bureaucracy, but late in his reign there were political reasons to liquidate them.
In any case, this is a side discussion. Tunis is Muslim and can't be converted. There is no chance at this date of re-Christianizing it.
In any case, this is a side discussion. Tunis is Muslim and can't be converted. There is no chance at this date of re-Christianizing it.
Which is why I don't use it all that often
Is Philip a common Muslim name?
Adobe is broken. I'm working on installing a freeware version of it.
Sure, they were liquidated, but not by him. Due to his possible early senility as Falcundus puts it, his Latin court advisers had a lot more free reign to eliminate their rivals.
Why? The religious orientation of group of people are hardly set in stone. If they were, Lithuania should still be Pagan, and Mexicans should be worshiping the Aztec pantheon.
Keenir
Banned
a name-change isn't mandatory for converts.
as to populations changing their faiths...I agree, to a point - you have to have a population base that wants to convert, a branch of state or population able to carry out the conversions (usually missionaries or priests), and a way of keeping out rivals for the population (what keeps neighboring states from sending people over to return the population to Islam?)
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Christian, Jewish, and Muslim populations convert with vanishing rarity. In the very beginning, when Christianity was wracked by bizarre and minute doctrinal differences, and it was not at all clear that Islam was even a different religion, that was not so much the case, but after that, mass-conversion never happened, so far as I know. The few rare and minor exceptions were populations as yet only superficially Christianized, like in Bosnia - otherwise, the growth of new faiths was slow and incremental.
Spain is a good example. The Muslim populations in the Reconquista were not converted, they were massacred and expelled. Same with Byzantine reconquests.
Spain is a good example. The Muslim populations in the Reconquista were not converted, they were massacred and expelled. Same with Byzantine reconquests.