Challenge: The British Isles and France united

How could you have this occur? A marriage between the monarchies? A better Norman foothold in France?
 
England wins the Hundred Years War; becomes a rain-swept French province where commoners speak an obscure Saxon dialect. ;)

Well, I exaggerate, but that does seem to me the obvious way of doing it, and any plausible scenario is going to favour the *French. They've been much more populous than us for most of history.
 
I'm not so convinced that this ends up destroying England.

Consider the fate of Austria and Spain under the Habsburgs, or Spain and the Netherlands. The Spanish ended up surviving, no?

England will be more centralized than France; it has nobility who are not as capable as telling the king of sodding off in the way the, say, Armagnacs can. As such, the English will still play a major role.
 
I'm not so convinced that this ends up destroying England.

Consider the fate of Austria and Spain under the Habsburgs, or Spain and the Netherlands. The Spanish ended up surviving, no?

England will be more centralized than France; it has nobility who are not as capable as telling the king of sodding off in the way the, say, Armagnacs can. As such, the English will still play a major role.

Absolutely. My points are that the Hundred Years War seems like a logical place to start the ball rolling, and that given that we only caught up with France in population terms pretty recently, a joint-state is likley going to be French-centred.
 

Susano

Banned
I'm not so convinced that this ends up destroying England.

Consider the fate of Austria and Spain under the Habsburgs, or Spain and the Netherlands. The Spanish ended up surviving, no?

England will be more centralized than France; it has nobility who are not as capable as telling the king of sodding off in the way the, say, Armagnacs can. As such, the English will still play a major role.

Well no I dont think it would destroy England. The Norman Conquest caused such major cultural shifts because basically the entire nobility was replaced. Same reason why the Cathars Crusade killed Occitanian. This wouldnt happen if England wins the 100YW. However, the united state would still be primarily France.

Of course that also means that once national awakening comes, the state is prone to break up...
 
Well no I dont think it would destroy England. The Norman Conquest caused such major cultural shifts because basically the entire nobility was replaced. Same reason why the Cathars Crusade killed Occitanian. This wouldnt happen if England wins the 100YW. However, the united state would still be primarily France.

Of course that also means that once national awakening comes, the state is prone to break up...

Perhaps the spanish may even snatch the south when the union breaks up..
 
Thought: an Anglo-French state cancels one of the main themes of Scottish history, being buffeted between the looming centre of power in England and its most immediately rival in France, which OTL came to a head at the Reformation. It also means that English resources are deeply entangled in Europe.

It's not a guarantee, but given sponsorship from a more distance power than France which rivals the Anglo-French state, Scotland might be in a better position to last, so long as Anglo-France has credible naval rivals.
 
Of course that also means that once national awakening comes, the state is prone to break up...
Butterflies will help delay that. What if the two cultures rub on eachother, and we see a Latinised English and a Saxonised French as dialects of a single Franglish Language?
 
Butterflies will help delay that. What if the two cultures rub on eachother, and we see a Latinised English and a Saxonised French as dialects of a single Franglish Language?

Yup english becomes latinized to the point it looses individuality, english was being latinized after the invasion of the normans, the defeat in the 300 years war stopped it.
 

Susano

Banned
Butterflies will help delay that. What if the two cultures rub on eachother, and we see a Latinised English and a Saxonised French as dialects of a single Franglish Language?

Its certainly possible, but I wouldnt bet on it. How much was Austrian German hungarified IOTL? The answer is "not a single bit". Granted, Hungarian is not Indo-European and a comparatively small language, but the Habsburg Empire can still be used as comparative case: I think we can expect French to gain (even more) ground in England, by the nobility, the administrtaion and also the general upper class - but if there is a national awakening, thats also easily shrugged off again for the local/"native" language.
 
and that given that we only caught up with France in population terms pretty recently, a joint-state is likley going to be French-centred.
I don't think it would be that clear-cut and obvious; a lot of it depends on the power dynamics. If the nobility remains chiefly English, the military remains dominated by English customs and leaders, and the royal family remains in England, then this empire will likely will be more centred on England.

Think of this way: was the British Empire centred and based in India even though it had a much higher population than the British Isles?
 
I don't think it would be that clear-cut and obvious; a lot of it depends on the power dynamics. If the nobility remains chiefly English, the military remains dominated by English customs and leaders, and the royal family remains in England, then this empire will likely will be more centred on England.

Think of this way: was the British Empire centred and based in India even though it had a much higher population than the British Isles?

Thing is, the "English" nobility remained, in the 1300s at least, essentially French. If India had been conquered by an island ruled by a Hindi-speaking elite class, your analogy would be rather upset.
 
Its certainly possible, but I wouldnt bet on it. How much was Austrian German hungarified IOTL? The answer is "not a single bit". Granted, Hungarian is not Indo-European and a comparatively small language, but the Habsburg Empire can still be used as comparative case: I think we can expect French to gain (even more) ground in England, by the nobility, the administrtaion and also the general upper class - but if there is a national awakening, thats also easily shrugged off again for the local/"native" language.
I guess, but till 1848, Hungarians were more of a dominated people rather than on equal standing with the Austrians. French and English would meld and merge more, IMO.
 

Susano

Banned
I guess, but till 1848, Hungarians were more of a dominated people rather than on equal standing with the Austrians. French and English would meld and merge more, IMO.

Well, once the English and French King sits in Paris, what do you think will be the status of England and most especially the English language, hm? ;) Especially as the latter already was the by far less prestigeous language as is, since French was at that time and for centuries to come the most prestigeous living language of Europe.
 
Thing is, the "English" nobility remained, in the 1300s at least, essentially French. If India had been conquered by an island ruled by a Hindi-speaking elite class, your analogy would be rather upset.

Of course, Henry V was the first king to use English in personal correspondence. Since I think Henry V is probably the monarch who came closest to ending up King....
 
Of course, Henry V was the first king to use English in personal correspondence. Since I think Henry V is probably the monarch who came closest to ending up King....

That's the tricky thing: the war also saw the development of Middle English. That's why I was keeping in the 1300s. What would happen if Henry V suceeded is a very interesting question. Middle English is pretty irreversible by that point, I think, even if the king is in Paris.
 
It's not a guarantee, but given sponsorship from a more distance power than France which rivals the Anglo-French state, Scotland might be in a better position to last, so long as Anglo-France has credible naval rivals.

I said British Isles. Scotland and Ireland have to be assimilated too.
 
Well, once the English and French King sits in Paris, what do you think will be the status of England and most especially the English language, hm? ;) Especially as the latter already was the by far less prestigeous language as is, since French was at that time and for centuries to come the most prestigeous living language of Europe.
Your point is a good one. In this scenario, maybe English really would be resigned to obscurity...:(
 

Susano

Banned
Your point is a good one. In this scenario, maybe English really would be resigned to obscurity...:(

Yes, but it wouldnt die out. Though a world with French staying as world language would be worse, really... its so much more difficult to learn, and so much less flexible!
 
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