Valdemar II
Banned
Germans made up 8% of the population in 1914, Swedes made up 1%, of course the Swedish population would be significant higher if Catherina hadn't ethnic cleansed them in 18th century, and if Swedish rule had lasted longer.
Challenge: Sweden a modern world power
- Thread starter JC Shurtleff
- Start date
Germans made up 8% of the population in 1914, Swedes made up 1%, of course the Swedish population would be significant higher if Catherina hadn't ethnic cleansed them in 18th century, and if Swedish rule had lasted longer.
Best bet is an alliance with Britain. In the early period in question, she still needed timber & access thru the Baltic; maybe even from *Sweden TTL. Also, she'd consider Germany a threat; *Sweden might discourage Prussian/German adventures or stupid navy programs. Also, an Anglo-Swedish alliance would benefit both in re Russia.
The hardest part IMO is getting Chas XII to be less of a dickhead.
He managed to ruin Sweden in the early 18hC. Butterfly that, Sweden's already well on her way. She had one of the most formidable militaries, & considerable diplomatic clout. (She was asked to mediate one of the Russo-Turkish wars IIRC.)Re: Swedish population, colonisation, etc...
Sweden is big. It has a lot of space. And not just in the north, the habitable parts of the country are rather empty too. Plenty of room for a lot more population than it currently has, especially if it takes to importing food.
As I'm pretty sure there were a lot more than 1% Swedes in Estonia up until WW2.
Sweden is big. It has a lot of space. And not just in the north, the habitable parts of the country are rather empty too. Plenty of room for a lot more population than it currently has, especially if it takes to importing food.
Where is that? Estonia or Courland or both?
As I'm pretty sure there were a lot more than 1% Swedes in Estonia up until WW2.
I'll concede that this scenario is shaky as hell but it might work, the PoD being that Charles XII is not wounded in the foot before the Battle of Poltava.
The morning of July 8, 1709 finds Charles XII of two minds, on the one hand he's in hostile territory, effectively out of supplies and backed up only by Ivan Mazepa's unreliable Cossacks. On the other hand his army is still undefeated and if he's lucky enough (which he usually is) this could be the final decisive battle of the war.
By day's end it looks like Charles's luck has won out again, the Russian army is routed and as the icing on the cake, Peter the Great is killed as he attempts to withdraw over the Vorskla. Russia falls apart effectively overnight. Mazepa has proven his is the horse to back and many Cossacks join him in rebelling from Russia. At the same time the Russian government collapses into infighting with no clear line of succession. The worst damage however is the loss of Peter's reforms; without a strong Czar to keep them in place Peter's unpopular modernizing reforms are thrown out, keeping Russia a backwater for decades to come.
But Charles flush from a resounding success in the Great Northern War and headstrong as ever isn't done with his military adventures. In 1710, in a move unexpected, though long feared by certain parties in Europe, Charles intervenes in the War of Spanish Succession. Charles's motives are honestly fairly weak, some vague points about helping old allies in France and keeping those dastardly Hapsburgs away from Swedish possessions, but that doesn't stop him. The war is already winding down and there aren't many opportunities for battle left: the British need Swedish naval supplies and large amounts of Dutch wealth comes from Baltic trade so neither of the maritime powers actually desires to fight Sweden. Likewise Austria is too far south and too preoccupied with France to really do anything to Sweden. With few opponents, Charles manages to win only a few token victories in Northern Germany before the war ends.
The important gain however is that Swedish dominance is recognized over the Baltic and Northern Germany. Between the War of Spanish Succession and the Great Northern War Sweden has managed to secure itself a corner position geographically in Europe and a solid sphere of influence that can't be seriously disputed except perhaps by the Hapburgs.
I'm not entirely sure where this would go, but this set up, unlikely as it may be, gives Sweden a solid shot to ride out any major wars in Europe down the line, as well as a burgeoning resource and manpower base in Germany and fractured Russia to fuel industrialization. So in another couple centuries from this scenario, Sweden might still be counted as one of the great powers of Europe.
The morning of July 8, 1709 finds Charles XII of two minds, on the one hand he's in hostile territory, effectively out of supplies and backed up only by Ivan Mazepa's unreliable Cossacks. On the other hand his army is still undefeated and if he's lucky enough (which he usually is) this could be the final decisive battle of the war.
By day's end it looks like Charles's luck has won out again, the Russian army is routed and as the icing on the cake, Peter the Great is killed as he attempts to withdraw over the Vorskla. Russia falls apart effectively overnight. Mazepa has proven his is the horse to back and many Cossacks join him in rebelling from Russia. At the same time the Russian government collapses into infighting with no clear line of succession. The worst damage however is the loss of Peter's reforms; without a strong Czar to keep them in place Peter's unpopular modernizing reforms are thrown out, keeping Russia a backwater for decades to come.
But Charles flush from a resounding success in the Great Northern War and headstrong as ever isn't done with his military adventures. In 1710, in a move unexpected, though long feared by certain parties in Europe, Charles intervenes in the War of Spanish Succession. Charles's motives are honestly fairly weak, some vague points about helping old allies in France and keeping those dastardly Hapsburgs away from Swedish possessions, but that doesn't stop him. The war is already winding down and there aren't many opportunities for battle left: the British need Swedish naval supplies and large amounts of Dutch wealth comes from Baltic trade so neither of the maritime powers actually desires to fight Sweden. Likewise Austria is too far south and too preoccupied with France to really do anything to Sweden. With few opponents, Charles manages to win only a few token victories in Northern Germany before the war ends.
The important gain however is that Swedish dominance is recognized over the Baltic and Northern Germany. Between the War of Spanish Succession and the Great Northern War Sweden has managed to secure itself a corner position geographically in Europe and a solid sphere of influence that can't be seriously disputed except perhaps by the Hapburgs.
I'm not entirely sure where this would go, but this set up, unlikely as it may be, gives Sweden a solid shot to ride out any major wars in Europe down the line, as well as a burgeoning resource and manpower base in Germany and fractured Russia to fuel industrialization. So in another couple centuries from this scenario, Sweden might still be counted as one of the great powers of Europe.
I admit to vast ignorance regarding the details of Swedish history, but with a PoD so late, I'm not quite sure how you can make Sweden into a modern France or Germany - without annexation of virtually the whole Baltic area and parts of central/eastern Europe as well. However, I don't see why even a smallish Sweden (yes I know Sweden covers a big area but the temperate areas amenable to agriculture, industry, and high population densities are much smaller) could not become like the Netherlands in the mid-late 19th century...a small, rich European state with a sizeable colonial empire, a largish navy to protect its trade routes, a center of world banking, and quasi-World power status. This would probably still require continued Swedish dominance over Norway to provide open access of the North Sea.
Deleted member 1487
Frankly, any scenario that doesn't have Sweden as the dominant power in a united Scandinavia won't fit the OP's desired outcome. Frankly, Sweden cannot have a divided north if she is to become a colonial, industrial, and financial power. Sure, breaking Russia helps, but eventually it will get its act together somewhat and the north is a relatively easy place to invade, with lots of historical connection to Russia. So the united manpower (which nearly doubles Sweden's scandinavian manpower), navies, and finances will allow the Scandinavians to truly make an imprint in the world scene and make it stick.
Sweden rules all the Nordic countries+Estonia, Lithuania, keeps Russia from having a baltic shore. Probably stays out of Poland and Germany....
This would require a world where multinational empires are still in vogue, which is surely possible.
This would require a world where multinational empires are still in vogue, which is surely possible.
In regards to Sweden industrializing early:
If Sweden can start its industrialization process with its own reserves and what it imports from Newcastle all it has to do is hold on to its colonies in OTL Delaware and expand them naturally up the Delaware River.
If ATL Sweden ends up controlling even just the eastern portions of OTL Pennsylvania it will have all the coal it could ever need. Coal mining in PA started ~1760 and was the center of American coal production until the 1920s.
Pennsylvania coal + Swedish iron ore = industrial powerhouse.
Although to ship all that coal back to Sweden you're going to need a massive merchant fleet, which also means a massive naval fleet to protect your interests. Sweden certainly has the timber to build a large fleet. Throw in the captured manpower from a cowled and/or conquered baltic region to crew the ships and you have a very very big navy.
And we all know what a massive navy can mean for an aspiring World Power™.
If Sweden can start its industrialization process with its own reserves and what it imports from Newcastle all it has to do is hold on to its colonies in OTL Delaware and expand them naturally up the Delaware River.
If ATL Sweden ends up controlling even just the eastern portions of OTL Pennsylvania it will have all the coal it could ever need. Coal mining in PA started ~1760 and was the center of American coal production until the 1920s.
Pennsylvania coal + Swedish iron ore = industrial powerhouse.
Although to ship all that coal back to Sweden you're going to need a massive merchant fleet, which also means a massive naval fleet to protect your interests. Sweden certainly has the timber to build a large fleet. Throw in the captured manpower from a cowled and/or conquered baltic region to crew the ships and you have a very very big navy.
And we all know what a massive navy can mean for an aspiring World Power™.