Challenge: Sweden a modern world power

With a post 1700 POD make Sweden into a modern world power with


  • G8 status
  • population of 30 million+
  • A continental if not world military power.

Extra bonus points if they have a significant colonial empire at some point.
 

Deleted member 1487

The best bet would be to have Gustav Adolph survive and win the 30 years war, establishing a Protestant Germany under his protection. Denmark will be cowed and likely invaded to secure for Sweden complete control over the Sound Dues and eliminate the other Scandinavian power as a threat. With this, Sweden will not have anything to worry about from the West when fighting Russia and likely Poland in the future. Also there will be an economic zone under Sweden's control with allied armies that will be of great use to fighting the Russians. Poland is likely to get invaded and broken up even earlier, which means more Baltic territory for Sweden.

It would also help if Christina, Gustav's daughter never became Queen, as she spent far too freely on the arts, nearly bankrupting the nation. It it possible that the King would eventually have a male heir, which would be important for Sweden in a number of ways.
Ultimately Sweden would be able to hold Finland and Karelia, while controlling the lands bordering the Baltic all the way around, making it literally a Swedish sea. That would give Sweden control of the profitable markets that relied on Baltic grains and hemp, mainly the Netherlands and Britain.

The peace and money coming from the conquests of Gustav would easily finance exploration of the New World, which means probably one or more islands in the Caribbean, which would be vastly profitable for sugar. Also, there is likely to be more population pressures, which could bode well for Swedish settler colonies in New England.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The best bet would be to have Gustav Adolph survive and win the 30 years war

The OP requires a post-1700 POD, so this scenario doesn't work.

I suppose a decisive Swedish victory in the Northern War would be the most obvious place to start. This could be best accomplished by having Charles XII finishing off Russia after his victory at Narva, although a successful 1708 invasion isn't entirely impossible.
 
Does Sweden have the natural resources required to spur an early industrialisation which is virtually a pre-requisite of becoming a G8 power? (I can't quite see Sweden doing a China)
 
Does Sweden have the natural resources required to spur an early industrialisation which is virtually a pre-requisite of becoming a G8 power? (I can't quite see Sweden doing a China)
I don't know about coal, but they have plenty of iron for that.
 
The OP requires a post-1700 POD, so this scenario doesn't work.

I suppose a decisive Swedish victory in the Northern War would be the most obvious place to start. This could be best accomplished by having Charles XII finishing off Russia after his victory at Narva, although a successful 1708 invasion isn't entirely impossible.

Seconded. A personal union between Poland and Sweden under Charles XII given that the war was partially a war of Polish succession.
 

Don Grey

Banned
With a post 1700 POD make Sweden into a modern world power with


  • G8 status
  • population of 30 million+
  • A continental if not world military power.
Extra bonus points if they have a significant colonial empire at some point.


I like the idea of a modern power sweden. But since i dont know VERY little about scandanavian history i will be very general in explaining my opinon.

You would have to find out a way for sweden to unite all of scandanavia under the swedish empire. Creating an ideology for united scandanavia(which would be denmark norway and sweden). I didnt add finland as scandavia because some fins dont consider them selves such. Then you would need to counquer finland and get your hands on Karelia then the kola. If im not mistaken kola has miniral deposits. Then strengthing your border with russia. Then start building a navy. Not just any one but actualy quite a formidable one.Then i suggest moving on to iceland because they have natural gass reservse needed for the future. And if im not mistaken icelanders are of nordic culture (correct me if im wrong) so dont think the people of iceland would be too upset being apart of the swedish empire. I think this is the first extent of land mass required to start being a power.

Your most dangerouse apponent i can think right now would be russia. With there reasources and large pop they are a formidable enemy to say the least(unlike some european nations they can recover from great loses easly). If you cant hold of russia on your own make sure to have alliances with other eastern european nations that see russia as a threat aswell. Your apponent for iceland might be britian dont agrivate her. But i dont now how much she would care about iceland though. Build influence in baltic states such estonia and letonia.Then start absorbing them.But dont move any farther then baltic states into europe. Be smart like the british and keep europe at an arms distance. European wars are costly if you wont a colonial empire(hell there costly even if you dont).

Make sure to have the goverment incurage large families so you can get your pop up. Fund asimilation programs under the giuse of education make sure every one speaks proper swedish and convert other christian denominations in your lands to yours. In a 100 years everyone will have no doubt that there swedish. You must have a large loyal base. Being a multicultural empire is great for the reasons of having a colorful and divers culture when your rich and strong.But when things get bad the shit hits the fan and people succied left and right. This is the land mass that would be required for her to be a modern power considering her neighbours.

If you want to have colonies i cant stress this enough but you need a fine navy! Plus you need a home front like a fortress. You cant be grabbing colonies puting down an african/asian/etc rebellion in god knows where while the russian/poles/germans/etc are breaking down your doors.Plus to get to the colonies you will be rubbing your shoulders against the the french and british navies (your passing near there waters if not through them).Your navy would have to be strong enough to the point that the brits and french would say "fighting the sweds would be costly". Dont purposely go for the colonies of europes giants such as french and british ones. Because your not in a very good position geographicly you will always be travelling in striking position of there navies. Plus dont get cought up in every debacle europe has to offer. After you have gotten finland karelia kola a couple baltic states iceland norway and denmark make sure your neighbours know sweden doesnt have an eye on there territories.But protect your european territories viciously and make sure to give the image fighting the swedish empire in europe will be costly as hell.

Well this is all i can say about sweden becoming a world power because i dont know the details of scandanavian history so these are easyer said then done.I eagerly await you TL.
 
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re: natural resources.
The way England's industrial revolution worked was mixing the high quality Swedish iron ore with the high quality northern English coal to make steel of the quality needed for industrial purposes before proper processes were invented to allow English iron to be used (once these processes were invented the centre of the British steel industry moved away from the north east to Shefield)

I suppose the same thing could happen in Sweden as happened around Newcastle but in reverse- its the Newcastle coal coming in and being mixed with the Swedish iron, not vice-versa.

Though Sweden does of course have plenty of its own coal stocks. I'm not sure of the quality there though.
 
This is problematic. Regional power, sure. Industrialised and rich? No problem. But world power? Very hard. But I will try.

After 1700, so ok.

Karl XII accepts the Polish neutrality and the offered status quo peace from August the Strong during spring 1701. Courland is placed under Swedish protection to ensure the cooperation and neutrality of the Polish Sejm and the peace with Saxony.This means that Russia is the only remaining enemy for Sweden. Sweden invades during the summer, and with much better resources and using the waterways in central Russia, the Swedes manage to keep their army supplied and decently reinforced. Pskov falls in August 1701, Novgorod in October 1701 and then the Swedish army goes into winter camp not too far from Moscow. In the meantime, the general European consensus is that Czar Peter is about to lose the war. He has problems attracting experienced commanders and mercenaries and the conservative stratas of society is emboldened by the lack of success on the battlefield for his reformed army. The Russian artillery is useless in a field battle and the infantry a haphazard mix of modern, well-trained mercenaries used to platoon firing and the usual levies and old-style halberd armed semi-regulars.

August in Saxony wants a big victory to get his prestige to centralise the Polish state - maybe Russia is an easier candidate than Sweden? At the same time, the Crimeans, with reluctant backing from their Ottoman overlords plan to retake some of which has been lost. The Cossacks, unhappy with Russian rule, send emissaries offering to rise against Russia. Peter needs a victory and marches out to face the Swedes during spring 1702. The result is a disaster and the Russian army is routed. Peter is forced to sign a hash peace - Pskov is ceded to Sweden, along with Fort Kola, Archangelsk and all land between them (effectively ceding all Russian ports to Sweden). The Russians are forbidden to fortify their waterways and all toll income from the Neva and Novgorod is to be paid to Sweden, guaranteed by Swedish troops, for ten years as war indemnities (in surplus of the huge amounts to be paid already).

As a result, Peter loses a lot of prestige. August invades, trying to get a victory and gets bogged down in the Ukraine. The Crimeans attack and a see-saw battle contiues for many years. Peter is forces to reverse some of his modernisation policies as a small scale civil war ensues in Russia, with riots, protests, refusals to obey orders etc. In this chaos, the Swedish-controlled Neva and Novgorod prospers and attract many refugees as order is maintained by Swedish troops. A few Russians take up trapping and trade in the newly Swedish Kola and Far Karelia, offered Swedish citizenship and freedom (there are no serfs in Sweden) on condition that they learn to speak Swedish and baptize their kids in the protestant faith (this usually does not happen, but trade increases in the sparsely populated woods).

The war indemnities are invested mostly in Swedish Pommerania, where it goes to waste, but some is invested in an East Indian trading company, some in industry in Dalarna, mostly based around copper and iron and some in new artillery. Many nations make overtueres for Sweden to join the War of Spanish Succession, but all are rejected. The French have the most influence in Sweden, but can only offer gains against Prussia and Hannover - Karl XII realises that it will be hard to supply the forces in north Germany if the British sail into the Baltic and declines. The British on their hand are mostly unable to offer any real gains and Sweden stays non-belligrent.

To be continued...
 
Though Sweden does of course have plenty of its own coal stocks. I'm not sure of the quality there though.

The quality is not great, and plus while useful for its OTL needs the total reserves are a pittance compared to the main industrial powers.
 
I know this is the pre-1900 forum, and this would be a post-1900 POD, but: maybe have them pull a bit more of a Switzerland during World War 2? Abusing the war for fun and profit, Sweden comes out wealthier than most of the depleted, bruised, and beaten Western powers. Perhaps it becomes one of the founding members of NATO, being quite near the USSR geographically and a next to a strategically critical ocean area, vital for NATO defence of Western Europe. The US is allowed to put MRBM sites in Sweden, and Sweden gets foreign resources and aid, which they use to build up their own Navy beyond the Baltic fleet, including maybe an aircraft carrier (a la Spain), and construct a mighty, booming economy. Combine that with Sweden's penchant for badass aircraft and automobiles.
Bam; minor world power.
 
I suppose a decisive Swedish victory in the Northern War would be the most obvious place to start.

Sweden had won decisively after Narva: she'd defeated Denmark and Russia with little effort. Last time she'd fought Denmark, mano-amano, it was a draw and ended in a status-quo peace mediated by Sweden's ally. Last time she'd fought Russia, the Russians had actually made territorial gains that Sweden only got back once Russia was losing to Poland.

So it was really quite astonishing that the Swedes had won so neatly, and they should have done as wiser Swedes suggested and made a status-quo peace: a further prolongation of a small peasant country's status as a European great power.

Once they stuck themselves in Poland and left Russia at large, the best they could do was not lose as much: Peter immediately set about building up native warmaking industries and mobilising Russia's enormous resources.

von Adler's scenario is more plausible than that, although even he's exagerrating Peter's difficulties. The Cossacks, for example, would hardly revolt in this situation: a small circle around Mazepa revolted because they were being snet to fight in a war they didn't care about whilst peter failed to defend their home (the rest either staid neutral or, in the case of a good half, pro-Russian under the influence of the Orthodox church). In this scenario, there's no lengthy foreign war in foreign lands. Fighting the Tatars always made the Cossacks happy.
 
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The peace and money coming from the conquests of Gustav would easily finance exploration of the New World, which means probably one or more islands in the Caribbean, which would be vastly profitable for sugar. Also, there is likely to be more population pressures, which could bode well for Swedish settler colonies in New England.

Wouldn't they be more likely to go for Iceland, Greenland, and Canada?

Does Sweden have the natural resources required to spur an early industrialisation which is virtually a pre-requisite of becoming a G8 power? (I can't quite see Sweden doing a China)

The G8 as such is probably butterflied away. But remember, Japan has no resources and it got wanked in the 19th century.

Don Grey is right that Russia is one of the biggest impediments to an über Sweden. Also keep in mind that large coalitions are likely to fight wars against Sweden for balance-of-power purposes, especially if Sweden starts futzing with the Holy Roman Empire. Britain is likely to be a rival once Sweden becomes a bigger threat than France, as happened with OTL's Germany.
 
Wouldn't they be more likely to go for Iceland, Greenland, and Canada?
Iceland was an itegral part of Denmark-Norway.
Who in their right mind tries to settle Greenland?

Canada, New England or further south (Delaware) is where Sweden would colonize, but it wouldn't pay off, would it? Isn't the Caribbean a better place for investments at this time, anyways?

Also, Sweden could never, ever, overtake France or a unified Germany as a continental power. To few people...
 

Deleted member 1487

Wouldn't they be more likely to go for Iceland, Greenland, and Canada?

Historically they went after Delaware, which is in the North East, but if they have their act together early they could go after Canada. Iceland would come with Denmark if it is invaded and conquered, as would Greenland. These are not really good settler colonies, nor are they particularly profitable.
Also, much of what could be gained from Canada, furs namely, could already be had very close by in Finland and Karelia. If anything Sweden is going to be looking for prime farmland, which probably won't be in New England exactly, but in the North East and further south. Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and the like will be prime targets, but I'm not sure if the Swedes could really put their population into colonization efforts at the time, unless there is something really attracting people, which will leave the home front weaker in terms of military manpower available and for colonization of European territories.

Actually, Sweden really doesn't need settler colonies in the US, as they have lots to settle in Europe. By the time that pressure starts to build and there is a need for colonies, the 1800's, the US is already controlled by other powers.

Iceland was an itegral part of Denmark-Norway.
Who in their right mind tries to settle Greenland?

Canada, New England or further south (Delaware) is where Sweden would colonize, but it wouldn't pay off, would it? Isn't the Caribbean a better place for investments at this time, anyways?

Also, Sweden could never, ever, overtake France or a unified Germany as a continental power. To few people...

It is unlikely in the extreme that Sweden by itself would ever really colonize North America, as there was really no need and colonists were needed closer to home in the Baltic. The Caribbean would be the best place to grab and turn into sugar plantations with slaves, which they did with one tiny island historically. Trading posts in Africa would probably emerge as would some in Asia, as happened historically, though these wouldn't really count as colonies.

Sweden, if it redefines what Sweden is by building an empire of conquered European states, could rival either of those powers, mostly by dominating parts of Germany politically after TTL's version of the 30 years war and by toppling the Habsburgs or getting them to sign a favorable peace deal. A Protestant Germany under Swedish influence with the entirety of the land surrounding the Baltic Sea officially Swedish and the Sound Toll abolished could see Sweden building up a populous and wealthy empire, but this would require a lot to go right and eventually things would fall apart to a degree. The Germans states would become more powerful than Sweden and would resent Swedish political control; as a unit the German protestants would be more powerful.

The best bet is to control territories in Germany and settle the Americas with Germans, but keep the administration Swedish, so when there are excess Swedes they can then migrate to an established Swedish colony, which has been established by pioneering Swedes and Germans. This would work best if it was a private effort working with the Protestant German states, with recruitment of civilians with promises of profits in the new world, with the private venture then later being nationalized by the Swedish Crown.

Of course to get this to work it would require my POD, which violates the OP.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
This are really hard with such a late POD, but not impossible.A Swedish status quo victory in Great Northen War are necessary, status quo because there are no way they're going to make gain (beside Courland and Polish Livonia if they're in a good position). But it put them in a good position. Of course if they could get rid of the Gottorps alliance (or strengthen the Gottorps enough that they doesn't need Swedish help everytime Denmark look at them) and Bremen-Verden it would be good, those doesn't do anything beside keeping the Danes in their throat, and there no way they can get rid of Denmark. A potential way could be that Sweden pushed for Gottorp to trade their Schleswegian part for Oldenburg, it was those claim which really angered the Danes.
So let say that the Swedes succed in that, Denmark likely entrer it long peace and have little reason for a alliance with Russia.
With their westen front free Sweden look to the east and south, not to Russia, but to Poland and to lesser extent Prussias possesions Hinterpommern and Ducal Prussia. Through mostly toward Poland. So they use the Polish War of Succession to push for some kind of partition of Poland, they may be in a better position than Russia, so we see Lithuania split between Russia and Sweden (with Sweden taking the greater westen part), while Prussia take Royal Prussia, Saxony keeps the rests.

If they cvan keep these possesion to modern day we can have a state with 30 million inhabitants. Of course it will be somewhat unstable and ethnic diverse. But with the Swedish industries it will be a state which will be hard to overlook.
 
What? Sweden never colonised the Baltic region - aside from some people moving to southwestern Finland and Åland during medieval times, no colonisation happened.

Sweden had a colony - Nya Sverige - at the mouth of the Potomac, but the Dutch took it.

The main effort of Sweden during this time of overseas activity was to get Pommerania economically viable, which failed miserably. It never really was that rich from the start and the damage during the 30 years war was never really reversed - wars with Brandenburg and Denmark saw further destruction too. The investments never paid off. This is why I have Karl XII sink most of the Russian war indemnities into the Pommerianian black hole.

Sweden had some amazing enlightement era people - Chydenius, Linné, Bellman, af Chapman, Faggot (yes, his actual name), Macklean, Celsius and so on. If you can get Chydenius into power somehow, things will be much easier.
 
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The biggest problem is Sweden simply lacks population to become a great power. It's no coincidence that early great powers were countries with large population like France and Spain.

IMO at best Sweden can achieve is some sort of Scandinavian Union where Norway and Denmark are either annexed or vassals and some sort of Zollverein scenario in Germany plus domination of Poland. Of course this opens door for such countries to grumble and wait for opportunity to throw off Swedish hegemony and if you manage to piss off enough people sooner or later they will gang up on you or you will get in a fight with somebody you can't defeat and your subjects will use this opportunity to throw you out.

The problem is Russia and unless Sweden manages to shut the Baltic for them permanently at some point Russia will defeat them.
 

Deleted member 1487

What? Sweden never colonised the Baltic region - aside from some people moving to southwestern Finland and Åland during medieval times, no colonisation happened.

Estonia and Courland also saw Swedes moving in of their own volition, with enough there in 1914 to make up about 8% of the population, that after 200+ years of Russian rule. This was not an active colonization, just as Swedes moving to Finland were not moving there due to a government policy, but rather private citizens moving for economic opportunity. Colonization is a loaded word, so I should have avoided it, but as many of the emigrating Swedes ended up as the ruling class in the areas they moved to, meaning to a degree, there was an effort to establish Swedish rule through the use of ethnic Swedes as administrators. It was colonization in the style of British rule of India. Excess population moved to Swedish controlled Baltic areas, which meant that colonization abroad in America with settlers was unlikely and unnecessary.
 
As far as I know, there was little oppurtunity beyond administration and the odd industrial and trade work. A lot of Finns and Estonians learned to speak Swedish, but that does not mean that a lot of Swedes moved over.

The census you are referring to must surely be Estonians that were capable of speaking Swedish.

Edit: Also, Courland was never under Swedish rule, you must mean Livonia.
 
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