Challenge: Surviving Zoroastrian nation

Zioneer

Banned
I don't know much about Zoroastrianism, but I'm still interested in the effects of a surviving Zoroastrian nation. So how would you set about ensuring Zoroaster is the main religion of say, the Middle East, not being replaced with Islam?

Bonus points if Mohammad (or his ATL equivalent) becomes a Zoroastrian preacher, or at least codifies the Zoroastrian religion a bit.

I assume you'd have to have the Sassanids survive, but I'm not sure what would need to be changed beyond that.

Also, what would be the immediate effects of such a survival?
 
So how would you set about ensuring Zoroaster is the main religion of say, the Middle East, not being replaced with Islam?

There are two possibilities which spring to my mind: In 447 Anatolia was hit by a series of earthquakes. They also slightly damaged the walls of Constantinople. Attila tried to use this opportunity, but the damage was to small to be exploited. If the earthquakes are stronger and cause the collaps of the Walls and Constantinople is subsquently destroyed by Attila, the Byzantine empire ends, leaving the Sassanids to pick up the pieces.

The second POD would be that Heraclius fleet sailing from Carthage to Byzanz is sunk by a storm. Before Heraclius arrival the Sassanids had conquered the whole middle east and will hold it.


Also, what would be the immediate effects of such a survival?

The first effect would be that the spread of Islam into India and Central Asia is prevented. If the Sassanid empire manages to hold the middle east and defeats enough Arab armies the Ridda wars could end with a defeat of the Caliph, Islam might even be strangled in its cradle.

Christianity will be much more fragmented than IOTL. The Sassanids were highly tolerant so you will see at least Nestorian, Miaphysite and Chalcedonian Churches.

Judaism will be better of when the Sassanids held Jerusalem IOTL they allowed the Temple to be rebuilt.

Ktesiphon will certainly become a major center of scientific research, which will fuse eastern and western tought.
 

Zioneer

Banned
There are two possibilities which spring to my mind: In 447 Anatolia was hit by a series of earthquakes. They also slightly damaged the walls of Constantinople. Attila tried to use this opportunity, but the damage was to small to be exploited. If the earthquakes are stronger and cause the collaps of the Walls and Constantinople is subsquently destroyed by Attila, the Byzantine empire ends, leaving the Sassanids to pick up the pieces.

The second POD would be that Heraclius fleet sailing from Carthage to Byzanz is sunk by a storm. Before Heraclius arrival the Sassanids had conquered the whole middle east and will hold it.




The first effect would be that the spread of Islam into India and Central Asia is prevented. If the Sassanid empire manages to hold the middle east and defeats enough Arab armies the Ridda wars could end with a defeat of the Caliph, Islam might even be strangled in its cradle.

Christianity will be much more fragmented than IOTL. The Sassanids were highly tolerant so you will see at least Nestorian, Miaphysite and Chalcedonian Churches.

Judaism will be better of when the Sassanids held Jerusalem IOTL they allowed the Temple to be rebuilt.

Ktesiphon will certainly become a major center of scientific research, which will fuse eastern and western tought.

Wait wait wait, the Sassanids were highly tolerant? I thought they persecuted Christians rather severely. Or was that just the excuse the Romans used to attack them whenever the Romans felt like it?
 
An Indian Parsi rises to become a key figure in one of the princely states, when the said prince dies, he establishes a dynasty for himself. Parsis and Zoroastrians from all over the world move into his petty kingdom, and it becomes somewhat of a state religion.
 
Wait wait wait, the Sassanids were highly tolerant? I thought they persecuted Christians rather severely. Or was that just the excuse the Romans used to attack them whenever the Romans felt like it?

No they didn't presecute Christians severely, as early as 409 AD the Sassanid emperors allowed Christianity to spread (in other words only 103 years after Constantine did the same in Rome).
Orthodox Christians were often supressed because the acted as a fifth column for the Byzantine Empire. Churches which had no ties the the Partriarch of Constantinople (and were often considered heretical) were free to do what they wanted.
 
Alt-alternate timeline: Persia plays off the Arab Islamic invaders as well as the Turkic Diyanatist marauders. In the wake of a slight victory, Zoroastrianism makes a strong revival.
 
Maybe.. during the Arab Invasion if Persia, agreed to convert to Islam, and put an Islamic caliph on the throne only if the Arabs defeated the Byzantine empire for Persia. ( a little white lie) Then maybe the Arabs would focus on the Byzantines, and while both countries are fighting, Persia builds up its military. Then when one party emerges the victor, both would be weakened, and then Sassanian Persia could Invade and retake the lands they lost, and because the Arabs would overextend and there forces are now thinned down, The Persians with their fresh military could easily crush both the Byzantines and the Arabs taking control of All of Arabia, the Levant, and Anatolia.... Maybe if they were lucky then they could capture the Greatly weakened Constantinople and march into the Balkans.( Just a thought):D
 
I don't know much about Zoroastrianism, but I'm still interested in the effects of a surviving Zoroastrian nation. So how would you set about ensuring Zoroaster is the main religion of say, the Middle East, not being replaced with Islam?

Bonus points if Mohammad (or his ATL equivalent) becomes a Zoroastrian preacher, or at least codifies the Zoroastrian religion a bit.

I assume you'd have to have the Sassanids survive, but I'm not sure what would need to be changed beyond that.

Also, what would be the immediate effects of such a survival?

This is a possibility that has often occurred to me. If you assume the OTL history until 635CE, then it is very hard to prevent the fall of the Sassanid empire. Sassanids were too weak at the moment to prevent the fall of their empire. However, there are many other possibilities. Chinese winning the battle of Talas and pushing strongly into central Asia (that would give Zoroastrianism the respite it needed since the Chinese did not try to convert), or even a surviving Vardhana empire in north Indian (the 700s were a period of chaos in northern India, after the death of Harshavardhana in 647CE) deciding to push back the Arabs after the Arab conquest of Sindh (particularly the sack of Multan) and meddle in the affairs of Persia, possibly backing a successful Zoroastrian revolt against their Arab rulers.
 
Whats been said previously-the Sassanids almost crushed the Byzantines in the 620's, and probably would have if it hadn't been for Heraclius' counter-offensive. Screw that up, and the Sassanids will take the entire Middle East. Instead of facing two competing-and war exhausted-empires, incipient Islam will face one unfied, victorious Sassanid empire controlling all the lands to its north, and probably won't do so well.

Also, IIRC caliph Umar was reluctant to add the Iranian plateau itself to the Arab Caliphate-he felt the cultural divisions between Arabs and Persians were just too great, and at one point said (I think) that he wished a "wall of fire" would separate Iran from Iraq. So, while it might not have been likely, I think its possible that you could have someone seize the Sassanid throne after the fall of Ctesiphon and work out some kind of a peace treaty with Umar, preseriving Persia in Iran itself but ceding Iraq. Of course, TTL Persia will still have lost most of its best armies and its capital, and will be extremely weak for quite a while, and would likely fall to the first nomadic invaders to come along (the Gokturks in Central Asia are best positioned for this, I think). Then, once the Gokturks take control, you basically have something that looks (in both size, and likely political structure) very similar to the OTL empire of the Khwarazim Shahs of the 1200's, except Zorastrian-dominated rather than Muslim dominated.
 
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Also, IIRC caliph Umar was reluctant to add the Iranian plateau itself to the Arab Caliphate-he felt the cultural divisions between Arabs and Persians were just too great, and at one point said (I think) that he wished a "wall of fire" would separate Iran from Iraq. So, while it might not have been likely, I think its possible that you could have someone seize the Sassanid throne after the fall of Ctesiphon and work out some kind of a peace treaty with Umar, preseriving Persia in Iran itself but ceding Iraq. Of course, TTL Persia will still have lost most of its best armies and its capital, and will be extremely weak for quite a while, and would likely fall to the first nomadic invaders to come along (the Gokturks in Central Asia are best positioned for this, I think). Then, once the Gokturks take control, you basically have something that looks (in both size, and likely political structure) very similar to the OTL empire of the Khwarazim Shahs of the 1200's, except Zorastrian-dominated rather than Muslim dominated.

Praise be the Eternal Heaven, Tengri!!!!!!!

It would be interesting for a Islamic-Gokturk Khanate in Persia. No doubt they would play havoc in the Punjab eventually. Some sort of strong Non-Arab state in Persia would likely make the Arabs persue a more naal policy and spread Islam ia the trade routes down East Africa and across the India.
 
One of the ideas I've floated around is the existence of a Zoroastrian Sassanian government in exile in the central Asian territories of China. Basically, have the Chinese do better against the Arabs, and have them keep the royal family (which went into China in the first place) as a convenient puppet government to keep the borders in line.

The only difficulty would be making sure they didn't assimilate, as they did in OTL.
 
Praise be the Eternal Heaven, Tengri!!!!!!!

It would be interesting for a Islamic-Gokturk Khanate in Persia. No doubt they would play havoc in the Punjab eventually. Some sort of strong Non-Arab state in Persia would likely make the Arabs persue a more naal policy and spread Islam ia the trade routes down East Africa and across the India.

Well, my idea was that the Gokturk Khanate would convert to Zorastrianism and declare itself a new Persian dynasty that replaced the Sassanids. But yes, it is interesting to think about the direction Islam would take with a Zoroastrian state in Iran (more emphasis on spreading into Africa? Europe?)
 
Guys

Another option, which has been mentioned in previous threads, is that Maurice is a little wiser or luckier and not deposed by Phocas. Then no Persian invasion and good relations between the two empires continue. It won't last, given the nature of humanity but if it lasts until the Arabs emerge they will face two wealthy, power states with well supported buffer states that could probably defeat the early Muslim inclusions on their own.

After this the Sassanids will be overthrown sooner or later but it's far less likely that the new rulers will replace the dominant religion. Furthermore another century or two and the religion will quite possibly be adopted by other nations, especially perhaps in central Asia or the Indian border region so even if lost in Persia itself it could survive elsewhere.

Steve
 
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