Challenge: Surviving Majapahit Empire

This does not necessarily mean survive to the modern day, but simply that a remnant of the Majapahit Empire- a large Hindu empire in OTL Indonesia, survives. It can be in a rump form (hopefully outside of Bali) or it can simply wane.

I'm interested, I hadn't heard of it before but I read about it now. A quick search of the forums didn't pull up any major dialogues on it. Any PoD I'm interested in really.
 
Ah, the first topic on Indonesia I have ever seen on these threads. Pretty cool to see the region that I know most (historically) about talked about here.

The problem with most Indonesian empires, Majapahit included, is that none of them were completely centralized. Majapahit, for example, only occupied the eastern two-thirds of Java and the island of Bali. The rest of them were puppet states, more or less. These satellite states would rebel every few years, which wasted the manpower of the Majapahit navy and army. If the Majapahit focused on uniting the archipelago instead of using the other kingdoms for only economic purposes rebellions would be put to a minimum.

Another thing on centralization of Majapahit, the distance between islands. The Indonesian archipelago has thousands of them, and getting the Javanese, Batak, Malay, Sundanese, Balinese and many others to believe that they are one people is pretty hard.

Of course, once the Europeans come I don't think Majapahit has much of a chance. It's just too vast and different. I've always ahd this idea of a surviving Indonesian empire doing a Meiji and all that, but in reality something like that I think is ASB. A Javanese rump state is probably I would think most likely, but how it would look like is nearly impossible.
 
The problem with Archipelagic empires is that they have little soft-fail capability, a land empire can crash and rebuild, and whip up an army out of nowhere, but once an island state drops below the threshold required to maintain its navy its empire disappears in a poof of smoke rather than waning.
 
As Nusantara has pointed out, Majapahit Empire was not a centralized state. Actually it was just an Indian style grand hegemonical imperium of maritime variant. They managed to extort tributes from polities in the areas between Andaman Isles and Papua and the trade routes of the region but their direct control was limited in the eastern half of Java and Bali only. Not to mention that their growth happened in a flash, instigated by two geniouses that were Prabu Rajasanagara (Hayam Wuruk) and his Prime Minister Gajah Mada (which the later was pretty much the leading genious and the one who started the whole idea of imperial ambition). Once Gajah Mada got sacked due to his failure in Bubat Incident, the political power that he had built was deemed to much for single person and then the position was divided into four grand ministries, increasing the power of Hayam Wuruk who himself was a great king. However, after Hayam Wuruk died, there was no one competent enough to rebounce back the empire from its decline, but actually the declining process proceeded rather slowly. I think it's doable to at least keep Majapahit, in a sense as a state controlling East Java and Bali continuously from Hayam Wuruk's era, survives into present day. In fact if done right, it seems realistic to make post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit actually rebounce back slowly re-growing into at least a power house in Central Indonesia.

To keep Islam away from Java until present day though, I believe would be tricky. Muslim world was basically the ruler of the global trade routes these days, and Indonesian polities which economy were majorly depended on these trade routes were the first in embracing Islam. Majapahit OTOH was based in Java, the most fertile island in Indonesia, which gave it (and for that matter, Javanese people) the power of majorly agricultural-based society. IOTL it was a factor in making Islamization of the Javanese people rather harder compared to the societies outside of Java which also as strategically located vis a vis main trade routes, and indeed the fragile nature of Javanese politics was a decent factor in paving the way of Islamization. If post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit had managed to not be as shaky as OTL, and at least manage to maintain East Java united, than that region's Islamization would most likely going to have a major set back. The larger post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit realm of domination would be, the harder Indonesia would be for the wave of Islamization to penetrate. To maintain East Java (and indeed most islands east of Sumatra, for that matter) be predominantly un-Islamic until present day though, would require at least Malacca strait a barrier to the spread of Islam, and this would require continuous firm Hindu domination over it for at least 4 centuries, which I don't think as doable....

Maybe if Bubat Incident didn't happen, or more importantly none of Hayam Wuruk's concubines managed to bear a son, we can give a better start up for post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit, avoiding the disastrous Paregreg War. But this won't guarantee of avoiding any similar conflict over succession in the future, most certainly, and also that you would simply need a series of successors that's as three-forth as Hayam Wuruk's capability as a ruler to guarantee Malacca Strait stays in Majapahit's orbit for centuries, and I don't know how to make Majapahit goes Ottoman.....
 
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Wow, that's a lot more information than I expected on the topic, awesome.

Ridwan Asher said:
If post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit had managed to not be as shaky as OTL, and at least manage to maintain East Java united, than that region's Islamization would most likely going to have a major set back. The larger post-Hayam Wuruk Majapahit realm of domination would be, the harder Indonesia would be for the wave of Islamization to penetrate. To maintain East Java (and indeed most islands east of Sumatra, for that matter) be predominantly un-Islamic until present day though, would require at least Malacca strait a barrier to the spread of Islam, and this would require continuous firm Hindu domination over it for at least 4 centuries, which I don't think as doable....

This is interesting. I was initially interested in Mahapahit because it was a Hindu Empire in OTL Indonesia. I am not too familiar with the process of Islamicization because I haven't come across many books that give it any credit in detail (often just a passing "well, there were Arab traders so they became Muslim).

I think there are ways to at least delay the Islamisization of the Malacca Strait. Perhaps Mahapahit could survive simply survive by Islamisizing though (in the far future), I'm not really sure (and have no preference it's all incredibly interesting).

After the foundation of Malacca, the Malacca administration was still Hindu. However, according to Sejarah Melayu, Parameswara dreamt that Mohammed came to him while proclaiming the syahadah to him. Afterwards, Parameswara dreamt again of the arrival of a Meccan man named Sayyid Abu Al-Hassan who gave a speech on Islam. At the dawn of day, that man came and performed his Asar (evening) prayer. During that time, Malacca had not heard about Islam or the Quran (at that time, early pre-historic South East Asian empires were Hindus). After that, Parameswara or his recent name, Sultan Iskandar Shah and his fellow Malaccans became Muslims.

This is from wiki: I'm not sure what to make of the source (and its validity), but if we just take the assumption that the Hindu king of Malacca does not decide to convert to Islam. I doubt Islam can be kept out forever, but it's certainly possible that a reasonably strong Hindu kingdom around the Straits could really diminish some of the influence of Islam for a short period of time.

This might provide a sort of window of opportunity to insulate a more successful Mahapahit- but my historical knowledge of Indonesia is really poor, so it's good we have some people here who really know their stuff :D.

As an afterthought, I imagine a more successful conquest of West Java would have some butterflies, which might blow away the Hindu king of OTL in Malacca- but I imagine the question of conversion really remains so perhaps it's still relevant.
 
Wow, that's a lot more information than I expected on the topic, awesome.



This is interesting. I was initially interested in Mahapahit because it was a Hindu Empire in OTL Indonesia. I am not too familiar with the process of Islamicization because I haven't come across many books that give it any credit in detail (often just a passing "well, there were Arab traders so they became Muslim).

I think there are ways to at least delay the Islamisization of the Malacca Strait. Perhaps Mahapahit could survive simply survive by Islamisizing though (in the far future), I'm not really sure (and have no preference it's all incredibly interesting).



This is from wiki: I'm not sure what to make of the source (and its validity), but if we just take the assumption that the Hindu king of Malacca does not decide to convert to Islam. I doubt Islam can be kept out forever, but it's certainly possible that a reasonably strong Hindu kingdom around the Straits could really diminish some of the influence of Islam for a short period of time.

This might provide a sort of window of opportunity to insulate a more successful Mahapahit- but my historical knowledge of Indonesia is really poor, so it's good we have some people here who really know their stuff :D.

As an afterthought, I imagine a more successful conquest of West Java would have some butterflies, which might blow away the Hindu king of OTL in Malacca- but I imagine the question of conversion really remains so perhaps it's still relevant.

There were Arab traders, who were basically were the representative of a market which consumed most of regions' exported spices, which in turn had the connection to a region where people killed each other for those spices.

The first Islamic Sultanate in Indonesia was conquered by Majapahit, but the very existence of the Sultanate was a sign of the incoming wave of Islamization. Islam simply had the advantage of providing economic benefits for kingdoms which backboned their economy on the international trade routes, so it was simply to tempting to convert. Majapahit was the only candidate available able to disrupt the trend, that for a bit. To do more than that, they basically have to prevent the stability of their control over the Malacca strait waning for even a blink (Stability in the homeland is absolutely required that's for sure, and to ensure that for a good while, maybe even a fratricide tradition a la Ottomans, but that seems to be stretching it.) and then to make a condition where conversion to Islam would be unprofitable or at least to severely limit subjects contact with Islam, which I simply don't how either of that could've been done, since Malacca Strait was the only bridge for Islamic World to China and the Oriental Spices.....


About West Java, one thing to be noted is.... that it is part of Java, the mentioned most fertile island. There was a reason why Majapahit approached it with the offer of royal marriage instead of military muscles, or for that matter, didn't include it in the list of targets during maritime expedition to the west in the first place.
 
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Hm, could it be possible that the Majapahit rulers convert to Islam and we end up with a situation somewhat like India? A large, centralized Muslim urban "class" (if such a distinction was available back then) that handled trade and administration and a large number of Hindu "peasantry" (farmers perhaps is better). This being at least for a time (perhaps until colonialism pops up, noting there will be lots of butterflies :D).

That's a really sort of broad proposition. What I mean to say in more detail is: perhaps we have a Malacca Sultanate-situation with the Kings in Majapahit. If they somehow managed to have a happy marriage in West Java avoiding large-scale conflict, perhaps in the near-future we could have the rulers adopt Islam as a religion. I'm not sure how liberal the Hinduism was in Majapahit (i.e. how castes were constructed, etc.) but perhaps we'd end up with castes and local beliefs synthesized into Islam (as I understand it, many local beliefs are in various parts of Indonesia). A muslim Majapahit would endear itself to other states in the region but also create conflict with its rural population: however, like Indian rulers, some kings and rulers perhaps could just turn a blind eye to them.

Not really sure how feasible I'm getting, probably just wishful thinking but it's fun to consider at any rate.
 
Hm, could it be possible that the Majapahit rulers convert to Islam and we end up with a situation somewhat like India? A large, centralized Muslim urban "class" (if such a distinction was available back then) that handled trade and administration and a large number of Hindu "peasantry" (farmers perhaps is better). This being at least for a time (perhaps until colonialism pops up, noting there will be lots of butterflies :D).

That's a really sort of broad proposition. What I mean to say in more detail is: perhaps we have a Malacca Sultanate-situation with the Kings in Majapahit. If they somehow managed to have a happy marriage in West Java avoiding large-scale conflict, perhaps in the near-future we could have the rulers adopt Islam as a religion. I'm not sure how liberal the Hinduism was in Majapahit (i.e. how castes were constructed, etc.) but perhaps we'd end up with castes and local beliefs synthesized into Islam (as I understand it, many local beliefs are in various parts of Indonesia). A muslim Majapahit would endear itself to other states in the region but also create conflict with its rural population: however, like Indian rulers, some kings and rulers perhaps could just turn a blind eye to them.

Not really sure how feasible I'm getting, probably just wishful thinking but it's fun to consider at any rate.


The situation like in the India can actually happen for a period of time, but I can't see it last for to long. Unlike Indo-Gangetic plains, Java is smaller and the population isn't as dispersed (and of course, smaller compared to Indo-Gangetic Plains), not to mention the weaker position the interior would be in if they would oppose the peoples of the norther coastals, due to lack of isolation for the later. I'm not even sure that India-like situation would last for more than a century....

Generally, caste system in Hindu Indonesia was somewhat rather less of importance to the society compared to in India, though that doesn't mean that it was anything near "didn't matter" at all. One of the most important appeals of Islam to low class Indonesians was the lack of any equivalent of caste system in Islam (which technically actually oppose to such). As for syncreticism, it would be pretty much inevitable. As for how Islam would make its way into TTL's Javanese part of Java, which would be united (a good part of it at least) under an organized administration institution, this will be interesting. A less frequently shaky Majapahit should provide for a better constitution for the existing values of the society but OTOH, if the administrating institution would then decide to convert, they would be in a better position to enforce Islam compared to OTL Demak Sultanate. If such would happen when the administration institution (most importantly, the royal family) is internally politically divided enough, then the core realm will certainly break, though with the factor of positioning I've said in the previous paragraph, combined with the general less chaotic-ness of TTL Java, this would only be temporary, baring anything so disastrous happening, of course....
 
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Hm, well a conversion in the Empire could also spark a civil war of sorts, which would not bode well for a surviving Majapahit Empire on Java :D. However, from what I've read a lot of the Hindu population on Bali is descended from artisans and folks who were in the upper castes of Majapahit and were forced to flee basically after the fall of the Empire. In the event of a civil war, would it be possible to see some of the eastern Isles get inhabited by Hindus for a time- leading a rump Majapahit rebel-state or some such.

I'm thinking of this within the context of a Majapahit that survives longer than OTL and a Malacca with a delayed conversion to Islam. This leaves a larger window of opportunity a bit more peace and population growth in Java, and a bit more prestige for the empire- which would increase the amount of higher-caste Hindus not wanting to simply give it up if and when the Emperor decides to convert.
 
Hm, well a conversion in the Empire could also spark a civil war of sorts, which would not bode well for a surviving Majapahit Empire on Java :D. However, from what I've read a lot of the Hindu population on Bali is descended from artisans and folks who were in the upper castes of Majapahit and were forced to flee basically after the fall of the Empire. In the event of a civil war, would it be possible to see some of the eastern Isles get inhabited by Hindus for a time- leading a rump Majapahit rebel-state or some such.

I'm thinking of this within the context of a Majapahit that survives longer than OTL and a Malacca with a delayed conversion to Islam. This leaves a larger window of opportunity a bit more peace and population growth in Java, and a bit more prestige for the empire- which would increase the amount of higher-caste Hindus not wanting to simply give it up if and when the Emperor decides to convert.

I've already mentioned about the possibility of Majapahit breaking up due growth of Islam. Indeed a Majapahit that survived Paregreg War will setback Islamization in Java in general, but it won't halt it.

A Majapahit that survives Paregreg War, will likely be stable enough to maintain real domination over Malayan seas. However, they will be able to do little about the spreading of Islam, especially amongst the local merchants and enterpreneurs. It seems that maintaining peaceful relationship with muslim merchants will be the key to keep Majapahit's domination over the Malay seas firm and stable. This way, muslims can access corners of Majapahit's hegemonical sphere peacefully, including Majapahit's core realm itself. The rolling ball starts growing bigger from there.
However, if Majapahit manages to run into antagonism with the muslim merchants, the later's money will flow to anti-Majapahit parties, rendering the region unstable. This way, sooner or later Majapahit will be driven out of the Malacca strait, and a muslim power will emerge to dominate the region not unlike OTL's Malacca Sultanate. If Majapahit's core realm will manage to remain intact after it, what will happen next ? Majapahit is now no longer on global trade's aorta, which is now solidly muslim-dominated, and northern Java ports are the most relevant transit hubs for heading to Maluku.....

Both scenarios above will setback Islamization in at least Eastern half of Java, but neither of them will halt it.

About Bali-style refuge for Majapahit Hindus, I think would depend on how Majapahit will become muslim. If it's through civil war, then depends on how devastating the civil war would be. The better shaped Majapahit will come out from it, the stronger it will be for chasing the refugees relevant for chasing that went eastward(if any) (and for that matter, to dominate Bali and Nusa Tenggara), then the more likely Bali will become Islamic in this scenario (IOTL, the main reason why Bali managed to stay Hindu was because post-Majapahit territories became so fragmented until the dawn of colonialism)
 
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I forgot to say

The confederation in Luzon called Ma-I and Brunei are starting to merge during that time the problem is how would a combined Western Luzon kingdom and Brunei would fare without colonization and would it rival a surviving Majapahit.
 
If a surviving Hindu state slowed the expansion of Islam (which had advantages as the religion of trade), could Christianity supplant Islam in parts of Indonesia, when the Portuguese and then Dutch come in?
 
If a surviving Hindu state slowed the expansion of Islam (which had advantages as the religion of trade), could Christianity supplant Islam in parts of Indonesia, when the Portuguese and then Dutch come in?

I'm not sure if anything would be soundingly so different. If Majapahit which has converted to Islam managed to maintain East Java pretty much healthily united, Nusa Tenggara is bound to fall into its orbit, resulting in more Islamic influence over the region, compared to what the efforts of Bugis sailors did IOTL (which will still most likely going to convert to Islam ITTL, and will still certainly be sailing to Nusa Tenggara archipelago as well). It seems like southern part of Kalimantan will be fairly effected as well, especially if migration of Javanese refugees during OTL 1600-1700 to there didn't happen.

If when the Dutch and Portuguese come and encounter a still intact united Eastern Java, they won't going to take it lightly, and this decision will create quite many butterflies. I'm not sure I can speculate meaningfully any further..... But in general, I think Islam will fare generally slightly better in Indonesia with a healthy Islamic Majapahit. If Majapahit wouldn't survive Islamization, it will be harder to predict things, but I assume rather closer to OTL....
 
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