Challenge: Spain in the Axis Powers

In OTL, Spain stayed out of the war because they were still recovering from their own civil war. Could the Fascists to have come to power without causing as much damage? Maybe a more successful insurgency or even a democratic election?
If Spain did join the war, fighting for the Axis, how would that have changed things? I'm picturing a more difficult situation for England, and Americans becoming very distrustful of Spanish speakers. I also wonder if Spain would occupy part of France, freeing up German troops to fight elsewhere.

So the challenge is to put Spain in the Axis and discuss the consequences. The only rule is no ASB.
 
Could the Fascists to have come to power without causing as much damage? Maybe a more successful insurgency or even a democratic election?

The CEDA (in coalition with the PRR) did get elected and then tried to reversed the left-republicans policies which lead to them being voted out of office at the election that followed the colapse of their coalition. Its then that they realised they couldn't achieve their aims through democratic means and the CEDA joined the rebellion.

The Falangists (the original, not the francoist one) on the other hand were too radical for conservative and too, obviously, fascists for the left to get support from either through strictly democratic means.

for a shorter civil war, maybe the government refused to arm the militia, fearing a backlash from the communists and anarchists, so that that the rebelion is a short coup d'etat.

If Spain did join the war, fighting for the Axis, how would that have changed things? I'm picturing a more difficult situation for England, and Americans becoming very distrustful of Spanish speakers. I also wonder if Spain would occupy part of France, freeing up German troops to fight elsewhere.

Don't think it would have change much in the grand scheme of things. Your idea of Spain occupying Vichy France is probably quite possible. The Allied landing might have happened on their territory and post-war Spain would have been very different.
 
If the fight to win the Spanish Civil War hadn't been so difficult for Franco, he might not have needed Italian and German intervention--freebie weapons, yes; actual military personnel on the ground, no. Hence he would feel even less obligation to the Axis powers than he did in our time line.

Whatever else he might have been, Franco was not a fool. He knew the power of the United States, and he knew from the U.S. ambassador the U.S. position on his joining the Axis. More important he knew the power of the British Navy. Before the Germans could get the Luftwaffe into place in his country, the British would have sunk the entire Spanish navy and merchant fleet. They would also have occupied the Canaries and Spanish Guinea. They might even have seized Spanish Morocco to keep the Vichy at Dakar boxed in. The Spanish army in the colonial areas was incredibly weak; the Brits could have picked off this "empire" for a song if they deigned to do so.

But let's say Franco behaves stupidly or dies and is replaced by some Falangist fanatic. Then if the Spanish and Germans take Gibraltar, it's bad but not disastrous. The Brits couldn't send convoys through the Med in OTL anyway, even with Gib. The Canaries could take the place of Gib for protecting convoys down the African coast and north towards Britain. The only time Gib would be really, really important would be during Operation Torch. The Canaries could work for taking Morocco, but taking Algeria might require a two-stage invasion. If the Germans come into Algeria, well, at least the Western Allies are drawing more resources away from the Eastern Front.

Also, if Spain joins the war and invites in German troops to help take Gib, then the Germans being what they were would have pressured Portugal to join, or else. Fine, let them do so. Then the Brits seize the Azores and the Cape Verde Islands (and Field Marshall Smuts seizes Portugal's virtually undefended African mainland colonies and ports). From occupying the Azores alone, the war against Axis submarines suddenly becomes a lot easier. And the U.S. ability to ferry planes to Egypt and points east, once the U.S. enters the war, also becomes somewhat easier. (Caveat--Axis control of Gib means it becomes easier for U-boats to get into the Med.)

Beyond taking Gib, the Spanish really have nothing all that important to offer Hitler except as an alternative route for invading Vichy North Africa which otherwise would be done through the Italian navy and merchant marine crossing over a strait farther east at far less expense. But why would Hitler want to waste troops in Algeria or Morocco? He already had the use of Libya. Why would he waste troops in a peripheral (to him) place when he's gearing up for war with the Soviet Union? And if he did it, Vichy would rebel and he'd be tied up occupying more territory (in metro France as well as North Africa) using troops needed elsewhere. The only way the area would seem of importance to him would be if he took seriously the prospect of the Americans and Brits conducting a joint invasion of North Africa. In, say, 1940 this is not something Hitler would regard as a threat of sufficient importance to elicit anything more than a hypothetical what-if planning document.
 
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J.D.Ward

Donor
Is there any way that the Allies (especially Russia) can be so disgusted with Fascism in any form that they declare war against Spain and Portugal as a matter of moral principle?
 
Spain doesn't have much to gain from the war, nor does it have much to contribute to the Axis cause. This is why Franco asked for an enormous prize from Vichy France OTL in exchange for Spanish participation in the war, Spain stands to lose everything and gain nearly nothing, so there at least has to be the possibility that following Germany on its mad crusade will actually do something in Spain's favor.

Germany can't concede French possessions to Spain without alienating the collaborator regime, really it it's in Hitler's interests to tell Spain to go jump in a lake in that regard.
 
the book "The Basque history of the World". the author claim that Franco wanted to join the axis but hitler turned him down as Spain had very little to offer and feeding Spain would have made food shortages even worse in Germany and would need alot of German troop to defend it.
 
Is there any way that the Allies (especially Russia) can be so disgusted with Fascism in any form that they declare war against Spain and Portugal as a matter of moral principle?

Are we talking about during the Spanish Civil War or during WWII?

During the Spanish Civil War nobody is going to declare war, give one side some good support? That can happen. Send some volunteers? Oh yeah. Declaring war is not in anyone's interests at the time. It really is nearly impossible to, from the perspective of a modern, developed nation in Western Europe, explain just how terrifying the idea of war or anything that could lead to it was not only to the common people, but to their leaders. That was part of the motivation behind the widespread Allied embargoes against Republican Spain, along with the fact that the Republicans going closer towards the Soviet Union alienated a lot of people who would otherwise have helped the Republican cause.

If it's during WWII it's a few more people that the Allies need to fight that they didn't need to fight, so those moral principles are going to mean a lot of young men go home in pine boxes to their grieving families. The resources that could be used to set people free from Nazi concentration camps and just in general throwing back the real menace during the war will be wasted on a war that did not need to happen. So in other words, no.
 
the book "The Basque history of the World". the author claim that Franco wanted to join the axis but hitler turned him down as Spain had very little to offer and feeding Spain would have made food shortages even worse in Germany and would need alot of German troop to defend it.

That is certainly part of it, it wasn't quite so much that as Franco demanded a huge prize for his joining the war that would have killed German relations with Vichy France to concede.

Spain was ultimately more useful as a third-party from which to buy goods that the Germans would have lost access to because of British naval efforts anyway.
 
Is there any way that the Allies (especially Russia) can be so disgusted with Fascism in any form that they declare war against Spain and Portugal as a matter of moral principle?

During the civil war ? no. The western powers did jack in OTL for fear of starting a war with Germany (in the case of France) or because they liked the Left-leaning republicans even less (the British)

During WW2 ? even less so. The Allied had other things on their plate then opening another front on the war.

After WW2 ? Not as long as Franco isn't too blatant about eliminating his ennemies and keeps the communists out.
 
In OTL, Spain stayed out of the war because they were still recovering from their own civil war. Could the Fascists to have come to power without causing as much damage? Maybe a more successful insurgency or even a democratic election?
If Spain did join the war, fighting for the Axis, how would that have changed things? I'm picturing a more difficult situation for England, and Americans becoming very distrustful of Spanish speakers. I also wonder if Spain would occupy part of France, freeing up German troops to fight elsewhere.

So the challenge is to put Spain in the Axis and discuss the consequences. The only rule is no ASB.

OK, here's one idea, but with a 1910 POD that, outside of Portugal, doesn't cause too much butterflies.

*The Portuguese First Republic is much more stable than in OTL. For that to work, let's say that cooler heads prevail and Portugal has a friendly separation of church and state, instead of the OTL hostile one. This, among other factors needed to get it right, prevents the rise of Salazar.

*Because the Portuguese First Republic (in TTL just the Portuguese Republic) is much more stable, its economy is able to expand very quickly. Which not only gives it a bit more clout, but in TTL it could ironically make Portugal even more closer to the UK than OTL. For example, Portugal adopting the British 405-line TV standard, in this case, wouldn't be far-fetched. If the Commonwealth exists in TTL, it also wouldn't be far-fetched to have Portugal as a member of it - and thus participate in the Commonwealth Games.

*Due to Portugal's success, it might exacerbate things in Spain, thereby making the SCW much more bloodier than OTL if Franco wins. Franco soon makes irrendentist claims on Portugal. When WW2 comes around, due to that, Portugal joins the Allies very early on (due to the British connection) - as a result, Spain joins the Axis.

*This makes the Iberian Peninsula another front. With Allied help, Portugal curbstomps Spain and thus forcibly decolonize it - in some cases, by making those colonies independent or potentially taking them for themselves as war booty. Portuguese, in TTL, thus replaces Spanish as the fastest-growing world language - albeit in its European, not Brazilian, form.

*The Spanish Republican government-in-exile is eventually invited back to form a government; from 1945 onwards, Spain is now a republic whose right wing is largely discredited with bringing about ruin for no gain.
 
What about having the Republicans do slightly better during the Spanish Civil War? I'm not sure about the specifics, but sufficed to say that by the time the Second World War begins the outcome of the war is still very much in doubt. Wary of the intentions of a Fascist Spain, Britain and France begin to support the Republicans as much as is practicable. Diplomatic recognition is given to the Republicans along with as much materiel as possible.

Aid from Britain and France, coupled with a blockade of Nationalist Spain preventing supplies and reinforcements from reaching the Nationalists allows the Republicans to turn the tide of the conflict and begin to make significant gains. In order to secure a victory Franco/The Nationalists join the Axis. Following the fall of France German troops enter Spain to defeat the Republicans and take Gibraltar...
 
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