Challenge: Spain as the dominant superpower
- Thread starter rldragon
- Start date
Create a successful Spanish Armada- even if England frees herself, she's still going to be a wreck, and thus no competition for Spain.
just what the poster above said, then focus short term on conquering morroco but with more religous freedom. once then follow up with algeria and tunisia. from then on in give up the less benificial colonies in americas and invade sicily, then you've got a monopoly on the atlantic, english channel and mediteranean.
Delvestius
Banned
The simple solution is the removal of the Catholic church, I'm sure there are a few PODs that could be worked.
EDIT: Also, as Grey Wolf had mentioned, the influx of magnanimous amounts of unregulated bullion totally inflated the Spanish economy, and by Philip III there was really to hope for Spain. Another bad thing for Spain because of this is that they bought basically all of their commodities and equipment from other countries since they had the excess wealth to do so, thereby strengthening competing economies while failing to support a home-grown middle/merchant class and industrial base, which was already strangled by the Catholic Church.
EDIT: Also, as Grey Wolf had mentioned, the influx of magnanimous amounts of unregulated bullion totally inflated the Spanish economy, and by Philip III there was really to hope for Spain. Another bad thing for Spain because of this is that they bought basically all of their commodities and equipment from other countries since they had the excess wealth to do so, thereby strengthening competing economies while failing to support a home-grown middle/merchant class and industrial base, which was already strangled by the Catholic Church.
Actually, inflation was only part of Spain's problem. When the whole of the Hapsburg money making machine is looked at, Spain was one of the most profitable parts of it. The problem for Spain was that its tax money, rather then being spent on its own improvement, went on fighting expensive and largely futile wars elsewhere in Europe, like the Netherlands. Perhaps if that money had been spent differently, Spain could have gotten much more reward for it.
Nevertheless, to get it as a superpower, its going to need to bind those American colonies much more closely too it. Maybe some more expansion in Asia would be a good idea, which could be facilitated by a more successful Spanish-Portuguese union, but I don't know what the chances for that is.
Nevertheless, to get it as a superpower, its going to need to bind those American colonies much more closely too it. Maybe some more expansion in Asia would be a good idea, which could be facilitated by a more successful Spanish-Portuguese union, but I don't know what the chances for that is.
Delvestius
Banned
Just as inflation in of itself was only part of the problem, so to are those wars. Not one is significantly more important than the other; Hell, France was able to put off their war debt for two hundred years... The breakdown of Spain looks like this:
1. Huge amounts of unregulated monies from the new world = Inflation for the citizens, making it hard for an Industrial base to form in these times.
2. Spain, with much of their wealth, buys stuff from other countries, strengthening their enemies and making an industrial base (and through so a middle class) even more difficult.
3. The Alhambra Decree of 1492 evicted all Jews and Muslims, which were the economic backbone of Spain at the time, and without them the early merchant-middle class was virtually destroyed, as well as the institutions of banking and interest.
4. The Catholic church was the largest employer in Spain at the time, meaning a large amount of childless men, meaning a depression in population. The Church was given tons of monies to facilitate things such as cathedral building and the inquisition, which really didn't do much to benefit Spanish society... And of course, their stranglehold on banking and merchants, which made any form of growth under the church almost impossible. Many existing merchants moved to places like France and Britain, or to the colonies to strike it big... Leaving Spain much like an "Imperial housing bubble" ready to pop.
5. And of course, the wars with the Dutch, English, Ottomans, etc. did a lot to deplete coffers and such.
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Delvestius, thank you! Memory of mine remembers the big picture but forgets the details
Given what you say, might not no Reformation be an interesting POD for Spain, not least because you wouldn't have all those Protestant Dutch?
Alternatively, or together with the above, carving off Burgundy (sic) into a kingdom with its own king (as opposed to a viceroy) ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Given what you say, might not no Reformation be an interesting POD for Spain, not least because you wouldn't have all those Protestant Dutch?
Alternatively, or together with the above, carving off Burgundy (sic) into a kingdom with its own king (as opposed to a viceroy) ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Dominant superpower as late as 1900? Spain doesn't have the resource base or population, and it's American colonies won't remain under direct control if they develop enough to make a big contribution. Need to move the capital to the Americas at some point, or have Spain hold onto a lot more European territory (hm. United Spain-Italy-Portugal?)
Bruce
Bruce
Keep its colonial Empire while preventing union with the Habsburgs, which means it doesn't funnel its supplies of precious metal into costly wars within the Empire.
Perhaps not destroying the New World civilizations and maintaining them as client states offering them exclusive trade rights would actually help Spain last stronger...
Spain needs to be very careful with her finances and wage less wars. Mentioned conquest of the Maghreb states is not needed, as they are resource poor area that would be a giant hole in the pocket. The same is with Netherlands and 80 years war. I don't know where I read it but seemingly the fact is that Spain has spent the majority of her annual income on fights in the stated country. And if she can temper her pride and simply sit out all those Catholic/Protestant wars she took part in all the better. Ottos and anyone that threatens their interests on the seas such as English would be the only adversaries worthy of waging war upon.
Again, sitting out those interconfessional wars would be far easier if the Trastamara dynasty proved to be hardier - and Maximilian I was less successful in his marriage policies.
The wars, as Delvestius said, were only part of the problem. I think the main factor that led to Spain's demise was that by 1600, the money flowing into Spain was immediately flowing out again into the rest of Europe through the purchase of imported goods. This led to the neglect of Castilian agricultural infrastructure and removed any incentive for building up any basic industry. Find a way to make sure the money coming into Spain stays invested in Spain and you've got the makings of a superpower. The best bet IMO would be to remove the Habsburgs from the equation so Spain can be prosperous and little noticed while France, England, and the HRE are fighting each other over the Reformation.
Surviving Visigothic Spain, and thus an Arian Spain?
The Visigoths converted to Catholicism after the Third council of Toledo.
It's one of those cases where Spain would stay stronger whilst having fewer European lands. It works.
I was thinking of some reason to remove the Catholic presence as somebody said that would help Spain along.
I`d say carve of the Netherlands early...preferably when Charles Abdicates,
say to Margaret of Parma and the Farnese, rights to Parma`s succession to the Spanish crown in exchange, and Naples/Sicily to Don Juan of Austria, Phillip II as regent until his majority is reached.... Isabella Clara can get Parma from Phillip II.
Spanish monarchs concentrate solely on Spain/Portugal and the overseas Empire (s)., wealth from same empire are reinvested in Spain itself at a controlled rate rather than throwing it into endless wars and revolts.. Naples/Sicily will probably still require some subsidies if they get into any fights with the Ottomans, but argueably it would also be in Hapsburg Spain`s interest to do so. A Farnese Netherlands can probably count on aid where necessary from both Spain and Austria, probably more the latter, as Ferdinand and the Austrian branch will probably still end up as HRE.
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The Trastamara where heading the same route the Hapsburg eventually went by and where getting very inbred, this is going to cause problems in the long run.