Challenge: Spain and Polland are both Great Powers

With a POD of 1900, is it possible for Spain and Poland to both become great powers by 2012? By great powers, I mean Britain/France/Russia/Germany/Japan/China/India tier.
 
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Not going to happen with a POD after 1900. Poland is lucky to have independence in any 20th century timeline, Spain is so far behind it hurts.
 
Not going to happen with a POD after 1900. Poland is lucky to have independence in any 20th century timeline, Spain is so far behind it hurts.

Agree. Spain might be possible but not easily be great power with POD of 1900 but Poland is absolutely impossible. Pod should be before 18th century if we want both being great powers.
 
Not post-1900.

One or the other of Germany or Russia if not both are going to be looming over it.
Perhaps some kind of Polish-French-Anglo alliance could have defeated Germany with a POD around the mid 20s. That is enough time to change Germany, Poland, Britain, France, and the rest of the world somewhat.
 
Perhaps some kind of Polish-French-Anglo alliance could have defeated Germany with a POD around the mid 20s. That is enough time to change Germany, Poland, Britain, France, and the rest of the world somewhat.

Poland was only interested to get the remaining Upper Silesia, Zaolzie and parts of Pomerania which do have a large Polish minority when it had it's 1939 borders.
 
Perhaps some kind of Polish-French-Anglo alliance could have defeated Germany with a POD around the mid 20s. That is enough time to change Germany, Poland, Britain, France, and the rest of the world somewhat.

Indeed. Poland’s population in the late 1930s was only slightly smaller then that of France and was increasing more rapidly, while industrialization was proceeding rather well given Poland’s limited capabilities. If WWII is averted, it might perhaps become comparable to France if given a very long time to develop. A lot can happen in 70 years.

OTOH, Equalling Germany and Russia is essentially impossible without a continent-wide disaster destroying both of them and largely sparing Poland. If Poland ends up joining the Axis and something resembling CalBear’s Anglo/American-Nazi War scenario ensues. Russia will be unimaginably ruined, while Poland’s geographical location would spare it most of the nastiness of the Allied liberation of Europe. Unlike Germany, the minor Axis states in the east would probably be left largely intact, and Poland would be the strongest of these. Thus, technically, Poland would be elevated to Russia/France tier if not above, possibly far above whatever the Allies make out of Germany. Needless to say, this is extremely unlikely to happen.
 
A different Russian Civil War ever messier than OTL that leaves Russia fragmented between different factions for a generation might allow Poland to expand further east: add in some more successful Polish diplomacy (good relations with the Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians) and a short victorious *Sudetendland war allied to France in the 30s migh leave Poland as the leader of some sort of east European block with real muscle. But it's a case of rolling multiple sixes in a row. Spain? Spain simply has no real chances for expansion: it might in a best-case scenario catch up economically with northern Europe, but it has neither the population nor the possibility for leadership over some group of nations that would allow it to become a Great Power at least by proxy. (I really can't see the Spanish successfully engaging Latin America to create some sort of transatlantic community with meaningful influence). Now, a nuclear-armed Red Spain could make a Great-Power sized nuisance of itself, I suppose...

Bruce
 
Could Spain have conceivably held their portion of Africa, and assimilated parts of it? Any way they could have gained any other colonies?

I don't think that Spain can annex more land from Africa after 1900 but it might keep Equarotial Guinea and parts of Morocco.
 
I don't think that Spain can annex more land from Africa after 1900 but it might keep Equarotial Guinea and parts of Morocco.
It seems Western Morocco and Guinea still have very small populations to this day (about 500,000 each). If Spain can get a 200,000 to 300,000 people to move to each of these locations between 1900 and today, they could acheive a majority I guess.
 
Not going to happen with a POD after 1900. Poland is lucky to have independence in any 20th century timeline, Spain is so far behind it hurts.

What about Japan as one of the main economic powers by the end of the XX century? No, hold on. No resources and they are so far behind it hurts!

What about having China as the first economy?

We are talking of a country that after suffering international isolation managed to become the eight economy of the world in the 70s.
Just save the monarchy in the 30s. A constitutional monarchy with moderate right and left parties. alt-World War II takes place with a less prepared Germany. Spain declares its neutrality as in the Great War. Germany finally declares war on Spain and bails alt-Vichy-France into the war as an active beligerant offering them territories in Spain (probably Catalonia or everything to the Ebro river). Spain enters war on the side of the allies and manage to stop the invaders in one of the mountanious ranges in Spain.
The US lend lease equipment to the Spanish army. Finally the americans enter the war. The US forces do not have to land in Italy and Normandy and the Axis is defeated with Soviet forces much to the east.
Spain is considered one of the Allied powers and Germany is divided in four areas: an small one to the east of Berlin controled by the Soviet Union and three more divided into British (and Commonwealth), US and Spain. Germany, Italy and France are treated as defeated nations. Spain gets most of French territories in North Africa. Due to its cooperation with the nazi invaders nationalism in Basque provinces and Catalonia is weakened. No autonomous regions save the african territories.
Alt-Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Spain does profit from it and Spanish industry is not only rebuilt but it is stronger than OTL. By 1970s when the colonies in Africa get independence from Spain, the metropolis is the fourth economy in the world. Due to the prosperity and its climate it is seen as the European California and it is one of the founding nations of the European Union.
 
Spain could possibly have done better if it had decided to scrap its seperatism, and regauged to Stephenson. This would possibly start under Franco, and would mean that by the time they joined the EU that you could ride from Madrid to Paris on a single train.
 
Anticlimacus: Japan in 1900 isn't "so far behind it hurts". China, meanwhile, has sheer mass operating in its favor once it has a government trying to modernize.

Spain doing better than OTL? Quite possible. Spain being a Great Power? No.

Marshal Plan aid being so generous as to send Spain soaring above pre-war levels . . . why would this help Spain but not Britain, say?
 
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