Challenge: RN 3rd Battle Squadron in Fleet Action

Pretty much what you're reading on the label: is it possible for the RN 3rd Battle Squadron to fight a battleship vs. battleship fleet action against significant heavy units of the IJN before all of its old 'R' battleships get sent home for obsolescence?

What sort of military feasible and useful operation could be designed by a clever commander to use the five battleships of the Eastern fleet (Warspite, Resolution, Ramillies, Revenge, Royal Sovereign) in such a way that they would find themselves in contact with an evenly-matched Japanese fleet of heavy units, preferably something like Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, and Yamashiro that would be a relatively even match with supporting forces? A bombardment or attack on the Burma coast? A raid against Penang?
 
It seemed very unlikely the IJN would use its 1st Fleet resources in the early stages of the war in the Pacific. The 1st and 2nd BS, being part of this 1st Fleet were to be held in reserve in Japanese homewaters, in case the USN was not crippled at Pearl Harbor and still could send a strong force into the Pacific. Only the two Kongo Class Battleships in SE Sasia were available, as the two sisterships were with the Kido Butai.

In theory the Kido Butai could be transfered to the Indian Ocean, after the Pearl Harbor attack, which it historcially did indeed. That gives the IJN all four Kongo's in the region, making up a highspeed and flexible battlesquadron, capable of operating together with the vast numbers of heavy cruisers and DesRon's in the area. They also could be coupled with the Kido Butai, for strengthening its AA capacity.

The four Kongo's were on paper inferior to the Royal Navies 3rd BS, but all had been extensively been upgraded and rearmored, especially in deckarmor. (up to 5 inches now) equal to the modernized Queen Elisabeth Class, which also was upgraded with the same thickness, while the Royal Sovereigns were not so much refitted. (most still had only 4 inch over the magazines at best. Only the already lost HMS Royal Oak had hers thickened to 5 inch.)

In terms of gunnery, both IJN and Royal Navy had excelent and reliable heavy guns, which were both accurate and had a good heavy round. Whoever had the best firecontroll would make the difference in and artilleryfight, as both sides could inflict serious damage to eachother. The only real advantage of the Royal Navy was in its modernized Queen Elisabeth Class ships, as these were armored against plunching 14 inch shells, while the Royal Sovereigns were not and the Kongo''s were still vulnerable to the 1960 lbs AP 15inch round. The extra ship in the British fleet would also make a difference, but speed was defenitely on the Japanese side. It could choose to stay out of the fight, if it wanted, while the slower British could not.

So tactically the IJN had the upperhand, as it could choose to fight on its terms, while the less ballanced Royal Navy in the Indian Ocean could not.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The R class could only elevate the main guns to 20 degree giving a max range not much above 20km with ordinary charges. Supercharges had been issued giving a range IIRC of about 27km, but probably at the cost of accuracy and certainly costing barrel life.

The IJN will know everything about the limited elevation, but not necessarily about the supercharge. As they have superior speed they can set the initial battlerange, let's say 24km - to be out of range of an ordinary 20 degree elevated gun - only to find out that 40 15" guns are sending 78400 lbs. of AP shell for each salvo - against 47520 lbs. from their own 32 14". Allows for quite an extra inaccuracy in the RN supercharge without loosing superiority. The next IJN problem is if one of the Kongos suffer a hit slowing its speed to below 20knots - shall that ship be left to meet its destinty or shall the whole squadron stay (and do the same)?

Bets IJN hope is for a plunging shell setting off a magazine in one of the Rs, but at 20km + the hitrate is quite modest, and I could easily see the two squadrons emptying their magazines without decisive results.

All in all I think we need some heavy PODs to have such an action. But perhaps if the IJN campaign in Malaya fail (like in Markus' excellent ATL) and the allies start a (re)conquest of French Indochina, Hong Kong, PI and Taiwan? That ought to give some opportunities for the R class acting as a flank guard for an invasion fleet and do a Surigao Strait like action, or perhaps even a Samar! It certainly wouldn't give any meaning to send off the Rs to chase IJN carriers so they ought to be in place when the opportunity arises.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Markus

Banned
Pretty much what you're reading on the label: is it possible for the RN 3rd Battle Squadron to fight a battleship vs. battleship fleet action against significant heavy units of the IJN before all of its old 'R' battleships get sent home for obsolescence?

Though! The IJN kept the battle line in reserve most of the war and Sommerville acted with due caution in the face of Japanese air superiorty. If the Japanese loose air superiority the RN is going to get bolder but the IJN will be more cautious.

I can see the possibility of Guadalcanal-like night battles but they´d most likely involve HMS Warspite as she was both better protected and faster. The old R´s are best used for convoy escort or shore bombardments.


edit: Some info about the night combat:


Question:

Just out of couriosity. What would have happened if the roles had been reversed and Kirishima put a dozen or more 14 inch shells into Washington? On the one had Washington is an actual battelship and a brand new one but at a range of under 9,000 yards the shell´s trajectory will be rather flat. IIRC post WW1 BB-designes empasised protection from high angle plunging fire?

Answer:

I don't have any of the US warship bibles, but my gut reaction is that Washington would be distinctly unhappy, but not anywhere near as unhappy as Kirishima.

The first question is whether Kirishima's guns could penetrate Washington at what both navies considered knife fight in a phonebooth range. Washington has the weakest protection of the US modern battleships (12" inclined at 15° on a 0.75" STS backing for the belt, and 16" max for the barbettes). Given my back of the envelope calculations, that gives Washington 13"-16" of effective armor. According to the Lundgren/Worth armor penetration tables over at Warships1, Kirishima's shells would have a similar trajectory (between 4.1° at 6K yards and 6.9° at 10K yards), with effective penetration of 17-20" of US Class A plate. Effective penetration is defined as "The projectile will usually retain intact its explosive filler cavity, a seated base plug, and a working fuze. Other damage to the shell is not addressed in this definition. The Effective Limit may be at a velocity equal to or above Holing Limit, or it may be impossible at any striking velocity under the given impact conditions." So, depending on the range, it is possible for Kirishima's shells to penetrate Washington. However, that assumes that the shell is not decapped by passing through the armored deck first. It's a valid point, because that did happen to one of Kirishima's shells that hit South Dakota.

So I would guess that it is possible for Kirishima to penetrate Washington. But the shells fired are ~1300 pounds lighter, and Washington is newer, better armored, and considerably better subdivided. She won't be shattered the way Kirishima was. Barring some bad luck, I'd bet on Washington to need time in a naval yard, but that is about it.


Conclusion:

Old or new matters little in a night(=short range) battle. Tactical surprise is the decisive factor.
 
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It is not that much more difficult to immaging what the reversed USS Washington vs IIJN Kirishima battle would have resulted in, as it was not only the Kirishima on the Japanese side to deal with, but also the two undamaged heavy cruisers Takao and Atago(flag) and IJN Sendai with her DesRon of still eight unscatched destroyers, while USS Washington at that time was alone, as all four destroyers were out of action adn USS South Dakota was impaired by a electical malfuntion.

With USS Washington "officially" hitting IJN Kirishima with 9 main caliber shells and over 40 of the secondary battery, but most likely hitting her many more times, given the point blanc range, the roles are to be reveresed for all ships in the IJN battleline, especially teh heavy cruisers, who were in line with Kirishima, so would have operated as a team. Since the Atago was the flagship and not Kirishima, Kondo would have acted with the known efficiency known of the IJN in nocturnal actions.

Given the same calculations and the number of guns available, it seems likely to conclude the Japanese would than score an official 8 heavy 14 inch shell's on USS Washington with over 60 secondary caliber hits, plus the 20 or so of 8 inch from the cruisers, but most likely a lot more, simmilar to the number of hits in the OTL on Kirishima. More importantly, it is very much likely several type 93 torpedoes would have hit as well, dooming the ship anyway, as the USN battleships were prefect targets for this type of weapon.

Most likely the relatively thin belt of USS Washington, dispite its inclining, would be penetrated by the 14 inch AP round, as range was short and trajectory flat. Although eight hits will most likely not impair her operationability, most likely the large number of other hits on the unarmored parts of the ship will. As with Kirishima in the OTL, USS Washington will most likely be knocked out as a fighting unit, as her systems get knocked out by fires, erupting everywhere on the superstructure, due to the many hits, likely to be scored by the IJN squadron. (simmilar to OTL USS South Dakota, who was also hit hard in her weaker spots on the superstructure especially.)

As the gunnery of the three large IJN ships have their range, the sixteen torpedotubes on the exposed side of the cruisers will certainly score a couple of hits at this close range too, against whom the USN battleship can do nothing. Given the technical details of the ships design, the direct effect of the first torpedoblast would most likely knock out her TDS, as the warhead is far larger than the system can deflect. With teh TDS gone, the next hit(s) will result in massive flooding most likely, simmilar to the hit in the OTL on her sisership USS North Carolina (with a smaller warhead, of a Type 95 torpedo from a submarine).
 
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