challenge, Prusso- Danish war ends in Denmarks victory

[MerryPrankster]

If an united Germany means war, well, then war it is.

But does it have to be war against Denmark?

The real problem with German disunity were the dynasties, with the Hapsburgs being a particularly troublesome one.

And didn't the French encourage German disunity? I think they'd be more deserving of a kicking than the Danes.

 

[Susano]

But does it have to be war against Denmark?

The real problem with German disunity were the dynasties, with the Hapsburgs being a particularly troublesome one.

And didn't the French encourage German disunity? I think they'd be more deserving of a kicking than the Danes.

I didnt mean it like that. What I meant is the assumed causality that WW1 (or in other TLs an equivalent war) only become possible or even inevitable due to germany existing as united great power. After all, before WW1 there mostly was peace back to the Congress of Vienna with only some short wars interrupting it. So its well possible that without German unification there wouldnt have been something like WW1. But thats no reason to hold German unification to be something bad - as said, I dont think it should be sacrificed (so to say - by ATL authors or whatever) on the altar of peace. If the creation of Germany leads to something like the Great War in the end, then the Great War it is.

 

[Janprimus]

(...)
But seriously do you think that Bismarck and Prussia can start the German unification process and complete it with a Reich under Prussian control without a decisive victory in 1864? And without a centralised Reich like the OTL one, do you seriously think anything like the OTL WWI (and WWII) would have been plausible? Not that it would all had been peaceful or that Bismarck or Kaiser Wilhelm were responsible for nazism (the nazis were responsible for nazism), but what exactly it is I have stepped on?
Regards

Steffen Redbeard

There already was movement to unify Germany, so the German unification could still happen, but maybe with less Prussian control. So IMHO a victory would be more important for a Prussian controlled unified Germany than for a unified Germany.

Besides there might have been a different ATL WWI, especially if the other Great Powers don't change their mentality and attitude, then a ATL WWI is still very much possible. The OTL German Empire certainly wasn't unique in that regard in the period before WWI; although they did make some diplomatic mistakes after Bismarck had to resign. Blaming only one side for WWI is just silly.
And an ATL WWI would also mean no or ATL WWII.

 

[Susano]

There already was movement to unify Germany, so the German unification could still happen, but maybe with less Prussian control. So IMHO a victory would be more important for a Prussian controlled unified Germany than for a unified Germany.

That is something to ponder anyways. In my scenario, with North Shcleswig Danish and South Schleswig and Holstein as an independent Augustenburg Duchy as a member of the German Confederation, and with generally greater GC involvement... this will be much more a GC victory than a Prussian victory. And as eariler Prussia now doesnt have a convinient casus belli against Austria anymore, putting a dent in Bismarcks great master plan (which wasnt German unification, but kicking Austria out of Germany). So Austria could then go about with its plan to strengthen the GC under its leadership. It didnt want an united GC, of course, but who knows, after some decades of development a la EU started like that?

 

[MerryPrankster]

That is something to ponder anyways. In my scenario, with North Shcleswig Danish and South Schleswig and Holstein as an independent Augustenburg Duchy as a member of the German Confederation, and with generally greater GC involvement... this will be much more a GC victory than a Prussian victory. And as eariler Prussia now doesnt have a convinient casus belli against Austria anymore, putting a dent in Bismarcks great master plan (which wasnt German unification, but kicking Austria out of Germany). So Austria could then go about with its plan to strengthen the GC under its leadership. It didnt want an united GC, of course, but who knows, after some decades of development a la EU started like that?

That's interesting.

Perhaps we could have two competing timelines in this thread--one where the Danes outright beat the Germanic alliance and one where the war drags out and we get the compromise situation you're describing.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I didnt mean it like that. What I meant is the assumed causality that WW1 (or in other TLs an equivalent war) only become possible or even inevitable due to germany existing as united great power. After all, before WW1 there mostly was peace back to the Congress of Vienna with only some short wars interrupting it. So its well possible that without German unification there wouldnt have been something like WW1. But thats no reason to hold German unification to be something bad - as said, I dont think it should be sacrificed (so to say - by ATL authors or whatever) on the altar of peace. If the creation of Germany leads to something like the Great War in the end, then the Great War it is.

Ah. Got it.

 

[The Sandman]

I didnt mean it like that. What I meant is the assumed causality that WW1 (or in other TLs an equivalent war) only become possible or even inevitable due to germany existing as united great power. After all, before WW1 there mostly was peace back to the Congress of Vienna with only some short wars interrupting it. So its well possible that without German unification there wouldnt have been something like WW1. But thats no reason to hold German unification to be something bad - as said, I dont think it should be sacrificed (so to say - by ATL authors or whatever) on the altar of peace. If the creation of Germany leads to something like the Great War in the end, then the Great War it is.

I think the issue isn't German unification; the issue is Prussian-led German unification.

 

[Susano]

I think the issue isn't German unification; the issue is Prussian-led German unification.

Hows that? What created tensions was the existance of a German Great Power on Europe, and especially France couldnt bear how it overshadowed. This wouldnt change with a Paulskirche Germany, either.