Challenge : Ottoman-Papacy Alliance

Quite self-explanatory. What should we do to make that in one time it's eventually apparent for the Papacy that alliance with the Ottomans would be the best to preserve their interests ? But of course, this alliance can include other Italian state(s), or even faction(s) outside of Italy, but this alliance has to be formed in order to combat against invading European Catholic Great Power(s), especially France (France must be on the enemy side). The PoD must be no earlier than the ascession of Suleyman I into the Ottoman throne.
 

Keenir

Banned
Quite self-explanatory. What should we do to make that in one time it's eventually apparent for the Papacy that alliance with the Ottomans would be the best to preserve their interests ? But of course, this alliance can include other Italian state(s), or even faction(s) outside of Italy, but this alliance has to be formed in order to combat against invading European Catholic Great Power(s), especially France (France must be on the enemy side). The PoD must be no earlier than the ascession of Suleyman I into the Ottoman throne.

my guess is that the Sublime Porte gets tired of France saying "yeah, I'm your ally" (only to vanish at the first chance it gets), and when the Pope secretly offers an alliance to the Ottomans *, the Sublime Porte seizes the idea whole-heartedly. (remember the Ottomans were the dominant Med. seafarers for a long time)

* = perhaps against the French League set against a backdrop where the Holy Roman Empire is undergoing a civil war - the southeastern region is pro-France, while the area next to France is pro-Pope.

in theory, its possible - Elizabeth I of England was giving serious consideration to an alliance with the Ottomans, after all.
 
I always thought that an Ottoman-Orthodox alliance (prior to the fall of Constantinople, of course) would be more likely, but it would be interesting to see this thread's idea turn out.
 
As far as I know the only Euro leader at the time that actually practiced something "realpolitik" enough to ally with the "heathen" Ottomans was Richelieu. Maybe if he manages to finagle a puppet pope for himself (or himself pope?!?!? :eek: ) and then allies with the Ottomans against the Hapsburgs or a successful Gustavian Swedish Empire?
 
But of course, while France must be the enemy, that doesn't mean this Ottoman-Papacy axis can't include other Catholic Great Power(s) on their band. This will be basically an-Anti France alliance. But this scenario cannot be a France-versus-everybody scenario, for France has to have at least one strong enough buddy on their side. However the Ottoman-Papal axis must not be outnumbered by the enemy. The PoD must not be earlier than ascension of Mehmed II to Ottoman throne and no later than the death of Suleyman I.
 
Last edited:

Keenir

Banned
imagine if the Pope was convinced that, if all went well, the Ottoman Emperor would convert to the Catholic faith - "hm, if mis-handling made us lose England, then imagine what some Ottoman coddling will get us!"

ps: Mr. Asher...where is that sig of yours from?

As far as I know the only Euro leader at the time that actually practiced something "realpolitik" enough to ally with the "heathen" Ottomans was Richelieu.

Aragon (Argon?) had an alliance with Timur Lenk - but Lenk died before the Ottoman Civil War (which Timur caused) could spiral out of control.
 
I'm not really sure this would work, who would be in on the side of the Papal-Ottoman axis? Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? Austrian Hapsburgs?
 
1) imagine if the Pope was convinced that, if all went well, the Ottoman Emperor would convert to the Catholic faith - "hm, if mis-handling made us lose England, then imagine what some Ottoman coddling will get us!"

2) ps: Mr. Asher...where is that sig of yours from?


1) OE must remain muslim.

2) Original ;)
 
What about a different approach? Remember, for a lot of OTL the primary Western European resisitence to the Ottomans came from the Hapsburgs. Maybe ITTL the Hapsburgs are a little more dominant in Europe in General, specifically in Italy, or the French wind up being far more Protestant somehow (or maybe just longer religious wars). So the pope finds himself in danger of being permanently under the Hapsburg thumb, and the French are in no current position to help. So the pope decides that he needs an alliance with whatever power can sufficiently threaten Hapsburg interests to keep him independent. Enter the Sublime Porte...
 
What about a different approach? Remember, for a lot of OTL the primary Western European resisitence to the Ottomans came from the Hapsburgs. Maybe ITTL the Hapsburgs are a little more dominant in Europe in General, specifically in Italy, or the French wind up being far more Protestant somehow (or maybe just longer religious wars). So the pope finds himself in danger of being permanently under the Hapsburg thumb, and the French are in no current position to help. So the pope decides that he needs an alliance with whatever power can sufficiently threaten Hapsburg interests to keep him independent. Enter the Sublime Porte...

Well, it's not like I ever said anything about the French must be participating in the war, so yeah, nice idea there :) It's just my thirst for a "Franco-Ottoman confrontation, happening on Italy" that need to be squashed :cool:
 
Well, it's not like I ever said anything about the French must be participating in the war, so yeah, nice idea there :) It's just my thirst for a "Franco-Ottoman confrontation, happening on Italy" that need to be squashed :cool:

They need not be exclusive. And I admit, the idea of Franco-Ottoman wars in Italy is intriguing. But it is simpler to have the Pope ally with the ottomans out of the necessity of holding back the Hapsburgs. Neutering France, even temporarily, is easy enough at this time period. It can be anything from a Pavia or Marignano style battle breaks the french armies, to more drawn out wars of religion, to trouble in the north, say with the British trying to sieze the channel coast definitivly. OTOH, for an anti-france alliance, you need the Hapsburgs weak enough that they cannot save the pope, a (temporary?) truce between the Hapsburgs and the Ottomans, and a reason for the Ottomans to want to fight the french (traditionally their best allies in Europe, even if little really came of the alliance). Now, all of this is possible, to some degree, and I can think of ways of pulling this off. But it seems far more straightforward to have the Hapsburgs generally ascendent in europe, with the pope wishing to retain some measure of independence but lacking any good potential allies (i.e. France) in Western europe capable of actually aiding him.
 
Top