Challenge: North and South Germany

This challenge is a bit complicated: make Germany divided between two countries , one in south and other in north, with the "north Germany" speaking some dialect of Low German and "South Germany" speaking High German.
 
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This sort of division, between a Protestant HRE and a Catholic North German Communion (and then a Kingdom and Confederation respectively) happened in The Silver Knight, through some complicated things and an alternate version of the 30YW.

Not sure on the language division, I didn't elaborate much on that (which I arguably should've, since having Germany split into two for a few centuries might have as well turned them into separate nationalities and made their 18th and later 20th century unification impossible, but that's not something I can change now)
 

Lusitania

Donor
I would see a north /east Germany “Prussia” and a south /west Germany. Have Prussia not gain any lands in west during Vienna conference. Could see one of the younger Prussian princes become king of kingdom of the Rhine.

1840s Prussia tries to conquer west and western kingdoms with Austrian help defeat Prussia. The west /south then form federation which turns into Germany. While Prussia controls lands to north and east.
 
Actually not that complicated. The North German Confederation was a thing from 1866 to 1871, when it was transformed into the German Empire. During that time there were proposals to unite Bavaria, Würrtemberg, and Baden into a South German Confederation. So if that proposal works out and you somehow avoid further German unification (not too hard, actually), you'd have it!

Now North Germany would have a few exclaves in South Germany (most notably Hohenzollern) but that could easily be remedied.
 
Actually not that complicated. The North German Confederation was a thing from 1866 to 1871, when it was transformed into the German Empire. During that time there were proposals to unite Bavaria, Würrtemberg, and Baden into a South German Confederation. So if that proposal works out and you somehow avoid further German unification (not too hard, actually), you'd have it!

Now North Germany would have a few exclaves in South Germany (most notably Hohenzollern) but that could easily be remedied.

Well, your alternative is good. Now thinking, the only complicated part is the language part. I will modify
 
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Actually not that complicated. The North German Confederation was a thing from 1866 to 1871, when it was transformed into the German Empire. During that time there were proposals to unite Bavaria, Würrtemberg, and Baden into a South German Confederation. So if that proposal works out and you somehow avoid further German unification (not too hard, actually), you'd have it!
south
Now North Germany would have a few exclaves in South Germany (most notably Hohenzollern) but that could easily be remedied.

Trouble is, Bavaria was bigger than the other South German states combined. Why should Wurttemburgers, Badenese or Hessians be any readier to be dominated by Bavaria than by Prussia? What's in it for them?
 
Trouble is, Bavaria was bigger than the other South German states combined. Why should Wurttemburgers, Badenese or Hessians be any readier to be dominated by Bavaria than by Prussia? What's in it for them?

Good question, and I'd say that there are multiple approaches how I can answer that.

First of: demographics!
While Bavaria was much bigger in terms of territory, its population was relatively small compared to its size. Around 1900 its population was 6.1 million people, Prussia had around 35 million people, and Austria-Hungary about 50 million people. In comparison Württemberg had 2.1 million inhabitants, Baden 1.1 million, and Hesse-Darmstadt also about 1.1 million (though that includes its territories which were part of North Germany; without Oberhessen it would have a population of around 0.9 million). So while yes, Bavaria was bigger than the other states combined, it was both geographically and demographically closer to the other South German states, thus making it a more equal union than the North German Confederation, where 80 percent of its population lived in Prussia.

Secondly: diplomacy.
Württemberg IOTL was super into the idea because a potential South Germany offered them more leverage when it comes to dealing with Prussia and Austria, since it'd be a united front, plus most of Württemberg's trade at the time IIRC revolved around Baden and Bavaria. Hesse-Darmstadt could easily have been swayed to deal more with Bavaria by making Prussia annex Oberhessen (which IOTL didn't happen because the Russian Emperor wanted to avoid large-scale annexations of the ancestral homeland of his wife and his diplomats lobbying for it). Then it would become a question of survival for Darmstadt. Now the odd one out is Baden, actually, which actually wanted to join North Germany despite only sharing a border with Prussia's Hohenzollern exclave, and Baden even formally allied with Prussia in 1866. Therefore a more reluctant Prussia is needed there, one which doesn't want to push for an alliance with Baden due to fears of angering the other big powers of Europe.

So basically only Baden is the issue due to its close ties to Prussia, but otherwise virtually nothing speaks against unification proposals.
 
Frederick the Great isn't around, and Joseph II's plan to trade the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium) for Bavaria goes through. A few years later, the HRE gets consolidated as in OTL - but the Habsburgs don't write off "Hither Austria", their collection of minor domains around the headwaters of the Danube in SW Germany. OTL they let that go IMO because there was no possible connection to the Habsburg Realm in SE Germany - due mainly to Bavaria in the way. ITTL they have Bavaria, and take advantage of the consolidation to take over the the petty domains in that area.

So when the smoke clears at the end of the Revolutionary/Napoleonic Era, "Austria" holds the entire south end of Germany.
 
Frederick the Great isn't around, and Joseph II's plan to trade the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium) for Bavaria goes through. A few years later, the HRE gets consolidated as in OTL - but the Habsburgs don't write off "Hither Austria", their collection of minor domains around the headwaters of the Danube in SW Germany. OTL they let that go IMO because there was no possible connection to the Habsburg Realm in SE Germany - due mainly to Bavaria in the way. ITTL they have Bavaria, and take advantage of the consolidation to take over the the petty domains in that area.

So when the smoke clears at the end of the Revolutionary/Napoleonic Era, "Austria" holds the entire south end of Germany.
That would not work as this Austria will still be part and the most important state of Germany (a Germany who will include the full HRE
 

Lusitania

Donor
That would not work as this Austria will still be part and the most important state of Germany (a Germany who will include the full HRE
You need the Germanies in the west to unite (due to political or military threat) without Austria being part of it. It can be ally but not part of Germanies. The issue is the iOTL in 1815 Prussia had large part of the territory along the Rhine. Somehow you need them to stay east of the Elbe River for the West to unite alone. Hence my suggestion above.
 
Here's my idea:
The PoD is the early years of the Protestant Reformation, where the Lutheran Bible was translated into (Low) Saxon (aka Low German). For their part, the German Roman Catholics have their own translation of the Bible based on the language of the chancery of the Habsburg in Prague/Vienna, as well as the South Franconian dialects (said to be transitional between Central German and Upper German varieties.

In short, there would be three "Germanies" in this scenario:
  • Saxony (aka the Hanover-wank) in the northwest
  • "Thuringia" in the northeast (aka the northeast High German-speaking Protestant state)
  • A Roman Catholic-dominated Germany in the remainder (south an with and west), with Frankfurt as the capital.
What's your personal thoughts?
 
Here's my idea:
The PoD is the early years of the Protestant Reformation, where the Lutheran Bible was translated into (Low) Saxon (aka Low German). For their part, the German Roman Catholics have their own translation of the Bible based on the language of the chancery of the Habsburg in Prague/Vienna, as well as the South Franconian dialects (said to be transitional between Central German and Upper German varieties.

In short, there would be three "Germanies" in this scenario:
  • Saxony (aka the Hanover-wank) in the northwest
  • "Thuringia" in the northeast (aka the northeast High German-speaking Protestant state)
  • A Roman Catholic-dominated Germany in the remainder (south an with and west), with Frankfurt as the capital.
What's your personal thoughts?

Interesting. I think about the position of the non-german speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire, like Bohemia and the french-speaking parts of the Low Countries. Could we see this languages being screwed because of the religion/language association ?
 
I think about the position of the non-german speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire, like Bohemia and the french-speaking parts of the Low Countries. Could we see this languages being screwed because of the religion/language association ?
They would remain autonomous, more or less. Or so I thought
 

Lusitania

Donor
Remember that universal French language was only imposed on all of France in the 2nd half of the 19th century.

So a similar issue would be the case with the various Germans. Language Uniformity was not a pre requisite till the 19th century. Therefore the establishment of separate countries would allow for differences in language
 
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