Challenge: Multiply the Turks

[Cuāuhtemōc]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=168746&highlight=Multiply+Greeks

Kind of inspired from this thread

Although they are numerous today, the Turkish people while numerous indeed are not as spread out as compared to other ethnic groups. To my knowledge, many Slavs, Greeks and Albanians converted to Islam and we see evidence of this in areas like Kosovo, Bosnia and Albania but they didn't necessarily see themselves as Turks though I'm sure their Christian counterparts certainly did.

The Turkish immigrants to Anatolia settled down and kept their own language and culture, displacing and/or assimilating the largely Greek and Armenian-speaking population of Anatolia. The Ottoman Empire didn't bring multiple successor states speaking local variations of Turkish the way that the old Roman Empire did in Spain, France, Italy, etc. They certainly had the capability to do so, I think.

Turk was considered an insult to refer to the Anatolian peoples and the nobility considered themselves distinct from such. Modern Turkish nationalism is a far recent thing that came with the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the establishment of the Republic of Turkey. There wasn't much of an attempt to Turkify the populations in the Balkans or in the Middle East for that matter. It didn't really matter. Being Muslim was enough.

How do we increase the numbers of Turks? I can accept PODs going back to the Seljuk Sultanate but I want to have this done with PODs after the establishment of the Ottomans. How do we get a larger amount of self-identified Turks spread over a much wider area in OTL?

 

[Ganesha]

You could try to have an ethnic Arab revolt in the earlier stages of the Ottoman area, leading to (after the revolt is put down), ethnic cleansing and Turkish settler development of the area. In other words, Turkify the Fertile Crescent.

 

[azander12]

You could try to have an ethnic Arab revolt in the earlier stages of the Ottoman area, leading to (after the revolt is put down), ethnic cleansing and Turkish settler development of the area. In other words, Turkify the Fertile Crescent.

I'd say that that would be nearly impossible, far too many Arabs. It could work though in the Caucasus, with an earlier and more complete Armenian Genocide. It might also work in the Southern Balkans, maybe Bulgaria revolts and the people there are wiped out completely?

I think the best hope for more Turks is having the Ottomans explode and settle large numbers of Turks throughout their empire, then have the empire break up. The local Turkic elites would appeal to local nationalism, but would retain their Turkish character. There would likely be a Turkish population throughout the former empire, just like the German ethnic populations of Eastern Europe.

 

[Malta]

Dont forget Persia! The country is half Turkic and had been rules by Turkics for centuries. If perhaps a little variety of ethnic cleansing and Turkofication instead of Persianization could occur.

 

[Elfwine]

The problem is finding a reason for people who aren't of the existing Turkic people/s to consider themselves Turks.

Iran has a long heritage of being Iranian, for instance.

 

[Pachac]

Dont forget Persia! The country is half Turkic and had been rules by Turkics for centuries. If perhaps a little variety of ethnic cleansing and Turkofication instead of Persianization could occur.

Yes, good idea, get rid of the Persian noblemen and half of the population. Any Turkic conqueror is going to move towards Persianization, not Turkofication. There is a much greater amount of prestige in Persian culture than that of the Turkish conqueror. Even Timur beautified Herat and used Persia as a power base.

The problem is that It isn't the first time a foreign conqueror has taken Iran. Iranian dynasties aren't defined by their ethnicity; as long as they can hold their own in Iran and consider themselves Iranian rulers, They're Iranian. I can't think of a time where Central Asian conquerors have been the ones to impose their own culture on Iran, instead of Vice versa.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Can we use prevention of Constantinople Patriarchate to achieve this ? I guess it will only result in a Turkey stretching from Bosnia to Kurdistan.

Anybody consider making Muslim Golden Horde surviving ? At least long enough to prevent the rise of Russia....

 

[yourworstnightmare]

The answer is to play as the Ottomans in Vicky 2. You'll easily turkify the whole empire.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Yes, good idea, get rid of the Persian noblemen and half of the population. Any Turkic conqueror is going to move towards Persianization, not Turkofication. There is a much greater amount of prestige in Persian culture than that of the Turkish conqueror. Even Timur beautified Herat and used Persia as a power base.

The problem is that It isn't the first time a foreign conqueror has taken Iran. Iranian dynasties aren't defined by their ethnicity; as long as they can hold their own in Iran and consider themselves Iranian rulers, They're Iranian. I can't think of a time where Central Asian conquerors have been the ones to impose their own culture on Iran, instead of Vice versa.

Didn't the Arabs at least attempt to impose Arabization on the Persian population in the beginning? I recalled them attempting to impose Arabic (sometimes by force) as the primary language of the subject peoples throughout the Caliphate, including the Persians. The attitudes of many Arabs weren't exactly pro-Persian so they at least tried to culturally assimilate them. It didn't really work.

It probably helped that Persian was a language with a lot of prestige, compared to say Aramaic or Coptic, not to mention the influence of the culture on the Arabs. And the many Persians converting to Islam who eventually weren't fond of being told too by desert nomads.

The Ottomans could had tried at least.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Can we use prevention of Constantinople Patriarchate to achieve this ? I guess it will only result in a Turkey stretching from Bosnia to Kurdistan.

Sure. It's encouraged. It would be helpful if you explained to me here or in that other place.

Anybody consider making Muslim Golden Horde surviving ? At least long enough to prevent the rise of Russia....

I was thinking more of the Turks as in the Anatolian Turks who gave us the Ottomans though you can certainly give me answers as to how we can expand the range of the Turkic peoples.

 

[Pachac]

Didn't the Arabs at least attempt to impose Arabization on the Persian population in the beginning? I recalled them attempting to impose Arabic (sometimes by force) as the primary language of the subject peoples throughout the Caliphate, including the Persians. The attitudes of many Arabs weren't exactly pro-Persian so they at least tried to culturally assimilate them. It didn't really work.

It probably helped that Persian was a language with a lot of prestige, compared to say Aramaic or Coptic, not to mention the influence of the culture on the Arabs. And the many Persians converting to Islam who eventually weren't fond of being told too by desert nomads.

The Ottomans could had tried at least.

Yes, Arabic was the official language during the Ummayads, and to a lesser extent the Abbasids. Persian as a language spoken nationally was only revived by the Samanids. Persian culture was actually falling in its strength during the Arab conquests. Had it continued, despite Abbasids use of Persian nobles in the bureacracy the culture may have faded away like it did in Syria and Egypt.

The Ottomans would have most likely just taken Tabriz and be done with it. I remember discussing this with Abdul a few weeks ago and we came to the concencus that natural boundaries limit Ottoman occupation to Azerbaijian.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Yes, Arabic was the official language during the Ummayads, and to a lesser extent the Abbasids. Persian as a language spoken nationally was only revived by the Samanids. Persian culture was actually falling in its strength during the Arab conquests. Had it continued, despite Abbasids use of Persian nobles in the bureacracy the culture may have faded away like it did in Syria and Egypt.

The Ottomans would have most likely just taken Tabriz and be done with it. I remember discussing this with Abdul a few weeks ago and we came to the concencus that natural boundaries limit Ottoman occupation to Azerbaijian.

Thank you for the information ImmortalImpi. It's helpful.

I want to ask you whether it's within the range of plausibility for the Ottoman Turks to encourage the assimilation of the local populations (in Mespotamia, the Levant, Egypt, and the Balkans) subject to them that by around the nineteenth century, the large portion of them would adopt a Turkish identity.

 

[Pachac]

Thank you for the information ImmortalImpi. It's helpful.

I want to ask you whether it's within the range of plausibility for the Ottoman Turks to encourage the assimilation of the local populations (in Mespotamia, the Levant, Egypt, and the Balkans) subject to them that by around the nineteenth century, the large portion of them would adopt a Turkish identity.

A 'Turkish' identity didn't exist; it didn't until the rise of turkish nationalism. The Nobles saw themselves distinct from the peasants of Turkey. It wouldn't make much sense for them to assimilate them; it's against the Ottoman customs. The best I can think of is more Turks settling in the balkan lowlands. The best would be an annexation of Moldavia and Wallachia, which would allow more Turks to settle in the loland regions. There were already a lot of them in the area in OTL before their expulsion or massacre.

 

[Alex Richards]

If we consider Turks as a subsection of the Turkic peoples, then there are other options as well. More Tajik and Kyrgyz settlers in Afghanistan (perhaps pushed there by more agressively anti-turk Mongol and Iranian empires) could lead to a Turkic majority in more of Northern Afghanistan. Similarly, an independent East Turkestan would prevent the current Han encroachment on Turkic areas.

 

[Ganesha]

If we consider Turks as a subsection of the Turkic peoples, then there are other options as well. More Tajik and Kyrgyz settlers in Afghanistan (perhaps pushed there by more agressively anti-turk Mongol and Iranian empires) could lead to a Turkic majority in more of Northern Afghanistan. Similarly, an independent East Turkestan would prevent the current Han encroachment on Turkic areas.

Getting an independent East Turkestan would not be impossible, though given that this is pre-modern, it would obviously not be called that. During one of the periods of serious Chinese instability (say during the fall of the Ming Dynasty, in the early 1640s), have a capable leader come to power as a warlord, achieve effective independence, and maintain it. The maintaining of independence would be the most difficult part to achieve, but a combination of good luck and good leadership (things which are not implausible) could easily keep Xinjiang independent to the modern day.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Impi, you mentioned that Wallachia and Moldovia could be annexed directly into the Ottoman Empire and serve as free land for Turkish settlers to move in. Perhaps after Vlad is removed as the Prince of Wallachia, instead of Wallachia remaining just as a vassal state, the Sultan Mehmed annexes the country and gives the job of administration under Vlad's younger brother Radu Bey who serves as the governor. Turkish soldiers would be provided by the Sultan to defend the newly acquired province with droves of Turkic settlers coming in from the Anatolian heartland, effectively consolidating the Ottoman Empire's hold over the country.

The colonizers brought to the area would consist of diverse elements: veteran soldiers, nomads, farmers, artisans, merchants, dervishes, preachers and other administrative functions. I can see the Ottoman government settling them in the towns along the lands bordering with say Hungary and Moldova (which can be conquered later) and the main roadways in addition to along the Danube. At the same, the Ottoman authorities, much like their Byzantine predecessors, could use mass deportations as a method to further their control, if the local Wallachians are too unruly to being under the thumb of the Sultan.

That a good start?