Challenge: Most likely map after Nazi Victory
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
Was just about to say the same thing. You'd think that Germany would take back the land they lost to France in WW1, and then some.Having just read this thread:
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHLSACE LORRRRRAAIAIIIIINNNE, people!
Thande
Donor
It's not a case of "would have" - they already did in OTL in 1940!!!!
The rest of France was occupied or Vichy, but Alsace-Lorraine was formally annexed to Germany with the armistice.
Yes. Yes it was. Hence the use of the phrase "image-linking" and "found". And the bullshitting about me knowing Finnish.
Valamyr
Banned
Some very nice maps here. I found this old one laying around, suggesting what happened to Europe 10 years after a devastating Nazi victory.
The blitz against Russia was successful and the US and Germany never went to war. The east was difficult to pacify, but progress was steady. After a few years, a truce was signed with the rump Soviet union remaining behind the Urals, but partisan activity continued in the great Russian parts of Reichkomissariat Moskva.
Meanwhile, Britain kept fighting one more year, during which German armies in the southern Caucasus and in North Africa pushed against the middle-east, while diplomatic talks forced Spain and Turkey to join the Axis. Ultimately, Churchill was thrown out of office after he failed to stop the full might of the Axis from overrunning the Middle-East. An uneasy peace was signed, granting Germany mastery of the continent and token colonies. With the lackluster Italian performance in North Africa, Hitler made it clear they would not get to keep all the Axis Middle-East, and set up a puppet Arab Federation to rule over it.
After the war, Germany absorbed the neutral nations on the continent with extreme prejudice, and rewarded his allies. France lost more land in the north and east, and shrank to her borders at the height of the HRE. In North Africa, Germany helped herself to Morrocco and Italy got Tunisia, Corsica, the italian parts of Switzerland, the coast of former yugoslavia and greater Albania, as well as East Africa. Turkey expanded eastwards and gained Cyprus. Serbia ceased to exist, split amongst her neighbors and her slav population greatly diminished through hard labor. A puppet state of Flanders-Wallonia replaced the southern netherlands, west belgium, and the Pas-de-Calais, while Germany helped herself to the germanizable lands to the east and the north.
Over the next few years, Germany sought to consolidate her role as leader of Europe and positioned herself as top dog in a new European hierarchy where each continental state occupied a position based on, essentially, how helpful she could be to Germany. France gained some clout back by being a dutiful servant, and Italy, viewed as useless, lost some as time passed. Spain and Turkey, which had bartered well for their entry into the war, were rewarded with exceptional freedom, whereas some close German allies were kept on a tight leash because they had outgrown their usefulness.
It became clear overtime that Britain would rather align herself with the US than become a close friend of the new order. Aside from the basic trading rights enclosed in the peace treaty, Britain prefered to do buisness with the New World. After her victory against Japan, America became increasingly interested in ensuring Britain's independence and well-being.
When British positions in Iran were threatened by pro-Axis revolutionary elements, the US sent help to Iran to defend the pro-western regime. Germany's answer was swift: the Azerbaji north and the rich oilfield province neighbouring Iraq were occupied and annexed into Reichkomissariat Caucasus, and the Arab Federation, respectively. The Sunnis ruling the latter quickly expelled the local Shiite population, which forced Teheran to accept full-scale US assistance, and created a first friction point between the two nuclear superpowers, and marked the dawn of the Cold War.
The blitz against Russia was successful and the US and Germany never went to war. The east was difficult to pacify, but progress was steady. After a few years, a truce was signed with the rump Soviet union remaining behind the Urals, but partisan activity continued in the great Russian parts of Reichkomissariat Moskva.
Meanwhile, Britain kept fighting one more year, during which German armies in the southern Caucasus and in North Africa pushed against the middle-east, while diplomatic talks forced Spain and Turkey to join the Axis. Ultimately, Churchill was thrown out of office after he failed to stop the full might of the Axis from overrunning the Middle-East. An uneasy peace was signed, granting Germany mastery of the continent and token colonies. With the lackluster Italian performance in North Africa, Hitler made it clear they would not get to keep all the Axis Middle-East, and set up a puppet Arab Federation to rule over it.
After the war, Germany absorbed the neutral nations on the continent with extreme prejudice, and rewarded his allies. France lost more land in the north and east, and shrank to her borders at the height of the HRE. In North Africa, Germany helped herself to Morrocco and Italy got Tunisia, Corsica, the italian parts of Switzerland, the coast of former yugoslavia and greater Albania, as well as East Africa. Turkey expanded eastwards and gained Cyprus. Serbia ceased to exist, split amongst her neighbors and her slav population greatly diminished through hard labor. A puppet state of Flanders-Wallonia replaced the southern netherlands, west belgium, and the Pas-de-Calais, while Germany helped herself to the germanizable lands to the east and the north.
Over the next few years, Germany sought to consolidate her role as leader of Europe and positioned herself as top dog in a new European hierarchy where each continental state occupied a position based on, essentially, how helpful she could be to Germany. France gained some clout back by being a dutiful servant, and Italy, viewed as useless, lost some as time passed. Spain and Turkey, which had bartered well for their entry into the war, were rewarded with exceptional freedom, whereas some close German allies were kept on a tight leash because they had outgrown their usefulness.
It became clear overtime that Britain would rather align herself with the US than become a close friend of the new order. Aside from the basic trading rights enclosed in the peace treaty, Britain prefered to do buisness with the New World. After her victory against Japan, America became increasingly interested in ensuring Britain's independence and well-being.
When British positions in Iran were threatened by pro-Axis revolutionary elements, the US sent help to Iran to defend the pro-western regime. Germany's answer was swift: the Azerbaji north and the rich oilfield province neighbouring Iraq were occupied and annexed into Reichkomissariat Caucasus, and the Arab Federation, respectively. The Sunnis ruling the latter quickly expelled the local Shiite population, which forced Teheran to accept full-scale US assistance, and created a first friction point between the two nuclear superpowers, and marked the dawn of the Cold War.
Hmm. I've always wondered though. I know the Germans had extensive plans to ultimately resettle large parts of France and annex the ethnic "Aryan" territories in Flanders, the Netherlands, Denamark, Norway and possibly Sweden and Switzerland but in the end would they have actually done it? Or would these unrully territories be more of a burden upon upon the Reich and just be given their independence within a Nazi dominated Europe?
Valamyr
Banned
Well its fine to ponder it, really, and I think a case can be made for either way.
Obviously, this map above goes with the "They meant buisness" theory. Not only do they actually annex them aggressively, but they go for martial law and SS rule in all areas where the annexations are unwelcome, making "with us, or dead" an official slogan.
Why do I think its the most likely outcome? Hitler and the aryan theory suggested that people could not be Germanized, and that only the Land could. So taking over the Land was the best way to see who was already germanized, while getting rid of the others at the same time. Also, its the most brutal outcome, and when I made that map, I certainly didnt want to suggest that Nazi liberators would be welcome everywhere with open arms within 5 years of their victories.
Hmm. Perhaps but i've always just felt that in the end it wouldn't be worth it for the Germans and they would know it - not when they are fighting such a brutal guerillia war in the east. I could easilt see that by perhaps no later than 1954-56 most if not all German troops could have been withdrawn (save for the odd military base like Lorrient) to Germany in order to defend the country internally, leaving most of their own security upto internally grown fascist movements and military forces.
As for the other "Aryan" nations. I could perhaps see them being part of a so called "Aryan Council", similar to the Nordic Council IOTL as well as participating in a wider Aryan Games.
As for the other "Aryan" nations. I could perhaps see them being part of a so called "Aryan Council", similar to the Nordic Council IOTL as well as participating in a wider Aryan Games.
Ok, first of all, nice maps everyone...
Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard (and I can't remember from who or what) that post-Nazi victory, the SS were supposed to be granted their own country. Now, I'm not sure if this true, but why don't more maps have a Moon of Ice-style SS country?
Which leads me to the only map with an SS country, Susano's. Just a brief question, what happened in that WWII?
Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard (and I can't remember from who or what) that post-Nazi victory, the SS were supposed to be granted their own country. Now, I'm not sure if this true, but why don't more maps have a Moon of Ice-style SS country?
Which leads me to the only map with an SS country, Susano's. Just a brief question, what happened in that WWII?
Very nice maps, but...
Saratov/Saratau/etc. would not be Ukranian. It would most liely be Caucasian/Khanate/whatever instead. It's in Tatar land.
Saratov/Saratau/etc. would not be Ukranian. It would most liely be Caucasian/Khanate/whatever instead. It's in Tatar land.
Henrich Himmler, possibly even a greater fantasist than Hitler had dreamed about building SS cities - brand new cities in the east. However, its doubtful that these would even have gone ahead, being too impractical and many in the Nazi hierarchy would view such an establishment of power in threat of their own. I doubt whether they would have allowed it to be set up.
Jomazi
Banned
I think most of you forget the Russians in all this. They would never surrender that easily, particularily not to the kind of enemy that saw them as "untermenshen" to be killed off.
Even if all military infrastructure in west of the urals were smashed, they still had factories in the east and a large civilian population that knew they were dying fighting or simply dying... Occupation would be hell for everyone involved.
The only possible alternative would be to gradually move the Russians east instead of killing them. Thereby, tens of millions of people would be held "hostage" forcing the USSR to stop the guerilla wars. But still, the logistics is baffling, especially since the agricultural output would have to be increased severalfold in asian Russia.
I imagine the 'stans and Mongolia can kiss their asses goodbye if the starving but technologically apt Russians decide to rationalize them away.
Even if all military infrastructure in west of the urals were smashed, they still had factories in the east and a large civilian population that knew they were dying fighting or simply dying... Occupation would be hell for everyone involved.
The only possible alternative would be to gradually move the Russians east instead of killing them. Thereby, tens of millions of people would be held "hostage" forcing the USSR to stop the guerilla wars. But still, the logistics is baffling, especially since the agricultural output would have to be increased severalfold in asian Russia.
I imagine the 'stans and Mongolia can kiss their asses goodbye if the starving but technologically apt Russians decide to rationalize them away.
Mapping
I would like to make a map but have no idea how to. Nazi Germany has won the war in France, Parts of England and Stalingrad is like East and West Berlin, with the Hitler-Stalin wall. But there are rebels in Russia making gurella attacks on German soldiers. London has been taken and a new capital of the British Empire is Liverpool. England and Ireland has made diplomatic victories and are allies. They have signed a contract incase of future attack to ship all citizens on a direct route to Dublin. Spain and England have made ties and are rebuilding their Navy together. North Africa has been taken and all British peoples have been shipped back to England.
I would like to make a map but have no idea how to. Nazi Germany has won the war in France, Parts of England and Stalingrad is like East and West Berlin, with the Hitler-Stalin wall. But there are rebels in Russia making gurella attacks on German soldiers. London has been taken and a new capital of the British Empire is Liverpool. England and Ireland has made diplomatic victories and are allies. They have signed a contract incase of future attack to ship all citizens on a direct route to Dublin. Spain and England have made ties and are rebuilding their Navy together. North Africa has been taken and all British peoples have been shipped back to England.
Why would Fascist Spain be supporting the allies if the Nazis were quite clearly winning?
Well i think it was in the end that the germans had ultimately planned to expel most Slavs eastwards into central asia, beyond the Urals. Presumably they would have kept a fair number of Slavs in camps to be used as slave labour though.
As for Mongolia, has Russia been defeated I doubt very much they would have the resources to maintain a hold over their own territory, much less Mongolia. Perhaps Mongolia would fall under Japanese influence. Perhaps the Japanese would expand Mongolian borders into ethnic Mongol territory in occupied China to make a puppet state of Greater Mogolia. Ultimately though it would do little to influence the outcome of the war in the east.
But I wonder what effect millions of Ethnic Russians (and presumably Ukranians, White Russians and so on) settling in areas of Central Asia, traditionally dominated by millions of Asian Ethnics would have on Russia. With a massive lack of food would we see Russians oppresing the Asians, taking away their food supplies and starving them. Would we see the collapse of communism to be replaced ironically by a fascist Russian state or have a long civil war? Most people in these senariors just seem to assume that Russia would simply remain communist fighting on with Germany in a guerilla war.
As for Mongolia, has Russia been defeated I doubt very much they would have the resources to maintain a hold over their own territory, much less Mongolia. Perhaps Mongolia would fall under Japanese influence. Perhaps the Japanese would expand Mongolian borders into ethnic Mongol territory in occupied China to make a puppet state of Greater Mogolia. Ultimately though it would do little to influence the outcome of the war in the east.
But I wonder what effect millions of Ethnic Russians (and presumably Ukranians, White Russians and so on) settling in areas of Central Asia, traditionally dominated by millions of Asian Ethnics would have on Russia. With a massive lack of food would we see Russians oppresing the Asians, taking away their food supplies and starving them. Would we see the collapse of communism to be replaced ironically by a fascist Russian state or have a long civil war? Most people in these senariors just seem to assume that Russia would simply remain communist fighting on with Germany in a guerilla war.
Susano
Banned
It was for a map contest. Pre-given PoD was that ONE person important in WW2 IOTL has to die, and I chose Charles de Gaulle. Over time this lead to France becoming a genuine ally of Nazi Germany (which slowly lifted all restrictions on it) - which is also why most of France is occupation zones atm, as France is treated as a defeated Axis power.
There were vague plans for a SS Burgundy (the inevitable SS State of Burgundy
) IOTL, yes, but they were indeed just vague. Besides, Burgundy (in its "Kingdom of Burgundy" borders, more or less - the Rhone Valley) is now the remnaint were Axis France holds out, so thats no possibility. Rather, the SS State is the result of an averted Civil War, after a British nuke hits a party rally in Nuremberg, killing most party grandes. The Wehrmacht initiates a coup and kills the remaining leaders, claiming they were all in Nuremberg. The new govenment officially keeps NS as ideology,a nd keeps all trapping slike the flag, etc., but is now ruled by the military, not the party. Civil War with the SS is averted when teh SS notices it has no chance, and hence retreats to the Crimea, where the South Tyrole Germans have been setttled (as was planned IOTL), where they build up an own state. Happy itself to have avoided a civil war, the new German government regognices the state. For a more detailed version of the timeline, look here.
For those who made the Low Countries (semi-) independent entities, it is very unlikely the Germans would have returned self-governance to them unless granting such would have resulted in establishing collaborationist Dutch control over the Dutch Indies (something the Germans were quite keen on, but a very unlikely prospect regardless of whether or not Japan manages to hang to them).
It is a matter of historical fact that Hitler has stated already in 1940 that Hitler 'no longer considered the Netherlands a foreign country' and twice in 1942 (on April 5th and on May 30th) that the Low Countries and Norway would be included whole into the Reich (to be renamed Greater Germanic Reich for the occasion, as the German Reich had been renamed Greater German Reich for the occasion of the anschluss with Austria).
To quote Goebbels (after Hitler's May 30th statements): "For [Hitler] it is natural that Belgium, as with Flanders and Brabant will be Reichgaue. The Netherlands too will not be allowed its own political life; whether or not the Dutch resist this, is fairly unimportant."
Those who combine the Netherlands with Flanders for to form a Dietsland are even further from what Hitler's intentions were; he stated multiple times that the idea of a union between the Netherlands and Flanders would not happen, ever (severely disappointing Mussert and his NSB).
It is a matter of historical fact that Hitler has stated already in 1940 that Hitler 'no longer considered the Netherlands a foreign country' and twice in 1942 (on April 5th and on May 30th) that the Low Countries and Norway would be included whole into the Reich (to be renamed Greater Germanic Reich for the occasion, as the German Reich had been renamed Greater German Reich for the occasion of the anschluss with Austria).
To quote Goebbels (after Hitler's May 30th statements): "For [Hitler] it is natural that Belgium, as with Flanders and Brabant will be Reichgaue. The Netherlands too will not be allowed its own political life; whether or not the Dutch resist this, is fairly unimportant."
Those who combine the Netherlands with Flanders for to form a Dietsland are even further from what Hitler's intentions were; he stated multiple times that the idea of a union between the Netherlands and Flanders would not happen, ever (severely disappointing Mussert and his NSB).