Challenge: More Portuguese-speaking nations in the Americas WITHOUT Balkanizing Brazil

[GameBawesome]

Brazil is unique in South America. Besides being one of largest nations, it is also the only one to speak Portuguese. This is due to the Treaty of Tordesillas, where Spain got most of the New World, and Portugal got Brazil, which eventually expanded over the next three centuries until it's modern size.

The Challenge today, with any POD from 1492, is to have another Portuguese-speaking nation or nations in the Americas without Balkanizing Brazil. It can be anywhere in the New World, from South America, Central America, to the Caribbean to even North America. The only condition is that you can't Balkanize Brazil.

 

[TanTheManJam]

Brazil is unique in South America. Besides being one of largest nations, it is also the only one to speak Portuguese. This is due to the Treaty of Tordesillas, where Spain got most of the New World, and Portugal got Brazil, which eventually expanded over the next three centuries until it's modern size.

The Challenge today, with any POD from 1492, is to have another Portuguese-speaking nation or nations in the Americas without Balkanizing Brazil. It can be anywhere in the New World, from South America, Central America, to the Caribbean to even North America. The only condition is that you can't Balkanize Brazil.

Portugal colonized Bermuda

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

Is a nation in North America fine as well? Because if so, you could have Portugal successfully colonize Newfoundland and Labrador + Nova Scotia, rather than abandoning them shortly after discovering, mapping and claiming the lands like they did IOTL.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

Fun fact, Portuguese is the most spoken language (outside of English and Spanish) in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. Miguel Corte-Real may have actually arrived in Massachusetts in early 16th century (or around 1511). The Portuguese could have capitalized on this if not for the Treaty of Tordesillas. That is the big reason why there was basically no Portuguese colonization of North America because everything there was in Spain’s domain. That being said, there was a small but significant number of Portuguese settlers on Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket Island so if not for the English, Portugal could have done more (aforementioned Treaty not withstanding). Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island were known for attracting Portuguese whalers before the 1870s. If the whaling industry was emphasized it could have been a big game changer.

 

[Chrispi]

Portuguese Newfoundland!

 

[AltoRegnant]

Is a nation in North America fine as well? Because if so, you could have Portugal successfully colonize Newfoundland and Labrador + Nova Scotia, rather than abandoning them shortly after discovering, mapping and claiming the lands like they did IOTL.

This is the best way because it also creates likely situations where people will miss brazil or labrador and thus create a third one somewhere

 

[funnyhat]

Fun fact, Portuguese is the most spoken language (outside of English and Spanish) in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. Miguel Corte-Real may have actually arrived in Massachusetts in early 16th century (or around 1511). The Portuguese could have capitalized on this if not for the Treaty of Tordesillas. That is the big reason why there was basically no Portuguese colonization of North America because everything there was in Spain’s domain.

IOTL the Portuguese expanded far west of the line of Tordesillas. If they had not done so, Brazil would be much smaller today.

Neither Iberian state took much interest in North America (north of Mexico) simply because there did not seem to be much there - no gold or silver and a colder climate than the Caribbean.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

The Iberian Union lasted from 1580 to 1640 , during that period , portuguese could have settled in North America .

More usually during this period, the minor partner's colonisation efforts got quashed so as not to compete with the major partner's. So if anything, you'd want to avoid the Iberian Union.

 

[Simreeve]

Both Portugal itself and then independent Brazil tried to take over what is now Uruguay. Having one of those attempts succeed, but the country later split off again after it had become majority-Lusophone, wouldn't violate your "don't balkanize Brazil" rule... would it?

 

[AsukaEMP]

The Iberian Union lasted from 1580 to 1640 , during that period , portuguese could have settled in North America .
Maybe Georgia +Florida +Alabama , as a portuguese colony ?

Even during the union the terms of Tordesillas were still respected, Castile and Portugal were still 2 different kingdoms with their own laws, nobility, etc. and each governed their own colonies. They wouldn't randomly establish a Portuguese colony in the Castilian zone just because they're in a personal union, the Castilian elites would never accept it. Castile also let almost no non-Castilians settle in their own colonies so having the Portuguese settle in those isn't an option either.
​

True, but Portugal already had a colonial empire and the borders of Brazil were expanded due to the Iberian Union and kept after the dissolution of the Union.

Brazil's borders didn't expanded beyond the treaty line during the union, their furthest settlement in that period was Belem and that was only barely across the line (arguably, depending on the map and definition used, on the Portuguese side even). Portugal only really started to expand beyond the original boundaries in the late 17th century, long after the union ended. Also the Habsburgs prioritized the Castilian colonies and were unable to properly defends the Portuguese ones, because of which they lost loads of those to the Dutch (including part of Brazil for a time).​

 

[Super_Cool2]

Barbados is probably your best shot. Supposedly, Portuguese sailors stopped there on their way to Brazil in the early 1500s. A claim could have easily been made for the Portuguese crown before England got there. Barbados would remain a small island territory for Portugal for centuries. It would get its independence in the 1975 alongside Cape Verde and Sao Tome & Principe, and be the second Portuguese speaking country in the Americas.

Portuguese Greenland is another possibility, as Greenland was specifically in the zone granted by the Treaty of Tordesillas. The Portuguese even explored the area in the 1500s for the Northwest passage. Have the Portuguese continue interest in that and Greenland could be theirs. Problem is, it could still be Portuguese to this day, not independent.

 

[WotanArgead]

Portuguese Newfoundland!

Something tells me that it will be something less successful than French Canada.

 

[Aluma]

Maybe if the whole British Argentina thing worked the brits could have used some portuguese settlers to make up for the ones they were spending elsewhere? The whole "world oldest alliance" thing and all
That way Argentina would be portuguese speaking even though it'd be technically a colony of Britain, working as the middleman between british interests and the interests of Portuguese Brazil

Argentinians in the background:
THE HORROR

 

[AltoRegnant]

Something tells me that it will be something less successful than French Canada.

Given that Portugal actually populated the colonies, unlike new france, and britain isn't likely to jeopardize their alliance over that region until long after the Portuguese would've been entrenched, I'm curious what

 

[WotanArgead]

Given that Portugal actually populated the colonies, unlike new france, and britain isn't likely to jeopardize their alliance over that region until long after the Portuguese would've been entrenched, I'm curious what

The problem is that Portugal does not really need these lands - it is too far from trade routes, there are not many full resources, and it is inconvenient to sail. For the British, just right.

 

[AsukaEMP]

Spain treated portugal as a protectorate from day one that's why Cristovao da Moura was twice viceroy of portugal .

Portugal had a viceroy because the king couldn't be in Madrid, Lisbon, Zaragoza, Barcelona, Naples, etc. all at once. Every part of the Spanish empires had governors and viceroy. Philip II generally respected Portuguese autonomy throughout his reign, and left the government of Portugal to the Portuguese. Cristovao da Moura is direct proof of that, he was Portuguese. Philip III continued doing so, and when Philip IV began to impose more taxes on Portugal and started carving away the local nobility's it ended in a complete failure as Portugal revolted and reasserted its independence.

The first bandeirantes moved west into the sertao in the north and minas gerais in the center during the iberian union .
That 's boots on the ground occupation ,west of the tordesilhas line .

First of all Minas Gerais wasn't actually west of the Tordesillas line, secondly Portugal didn't establish a permanent presence in the interior until gold was found in Minas Gerais in the 1690's. The bandeirantes didn't occupy any lands prior to that, they were raiding and slave-catching parties that operated from the coast

Spain was weaker north of mexico , so its doable in an alternative timeline that it doesn't oppose the establishment of portuguese setllers in north america , mainly in areas that aren't rich in gold or silver. An area like Gran Florida like i proposed could be seen by the spaniards as a buffer between spanish and english interests .

Florida was already established as a Castilian colony before the union for that very purpose, except it was originally against the French instead of the English, and it worked perfectly fine until the mid-18th century so I doubt the Castilians would deem it necessary or worthwhile to send a bunch of Portuguese settlers over there. Besides, why would they randomly pick Portuguese people over Castilians?

 

[AsukaEMP]

Given that Portugal actually populated the colonies, unlike new france, and britain isn't likely to jeopardize their alliance over that region until long after the Portuguese would've been entrenched, I'm curious what

Before gold was struck the Portuguese population in Brazil wasn't anything to write home about either, it was mostly just African slaves and American natives.

 

[AsukaEMP]

that opening line is so unhinged I'm not even gonna bother...

 

[Fulano]

I don't see how you could get more Portuguese countries in America after the Tordesillas Treaty was signed. Usually both Spain and Portugal respected that treaty, with just some minor exceptions in centuries.
One alternative I could think of is, having the Republic of Acre survive, but for Brazil to never annex it. The Republic of Acre was Bolivia's Texas but with Brazilians instead of Americans, so with that you could have two Portuguese countries in South America.

 

[TheKutKu]

An obvious one is French Guiana/Cayenne, it had a very low population until the past 50 years (more or less constant 20,000 until 1960) that could easily be turned Lusophone by mass immigration of Brazilians (even today, with largely illegal immigration, about 10% of Guianais - 30,000 - are native Portuguese speakers, with roughly 20% understanding or speaking it, and it's basically the vehicular language of the east of the region). Now of course it'd require it to become independent, and without being annexed by Brazil for the purpose of this challenge., so that precludes its IRL annexation during the napoleonic war.

Maybe Brazil occupies it in after a french defeat in ww1 and/or an imperial collapse? Maybe Brazil gets an UN mandate to it in the case of a Nazi victory/stalemate. Maybe there's no Free France, vichy france is more involved in the axis and the US forcefully gives independence to it after the war ends, enabling Brazil to interfere in it. There's plenty of ways i'm sure, as long as it happens before france gets nukes. But it's probably going to involve a post-1900 POD where international borders are more sacro-sanct, as before it'd be likely to just be annexed.