Challenge Massa-Senigallia Line as italian-french border

Challenge Massa-Senigallia Line as italian-french border,is this possible since the border between galloromance and italoromance is on Massa-Senigallia Line.

The area south of that is politically dominated by bourbons, the Bourbon-Parma and Bourbon-Two Sicilies
 
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Well for one thing, you wouldn't have an Italian state, probably hust some kingdoms and the Pope.

anyway, extremely hard if Venice and the Adriatic is included. I don't know, maybe some kind of really wanked 'Napoleon? French Communist state?
 
Well for one thing, you wouldn't have an Italian state, probably hust some kingdoms and the Pope.

anyway, extremely hard if Venice and the Adriatic is included. I don't know, maybe some kind of really wanked 'Napoleon? French Communist state?
I was thinking that if the pope's seat stayed in avignon it would be possible
 
For the vast marjority of us that have no idea what you are talking about:eek:
Include the Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

This looks like a

Kingdom of Naples
Kingdom of North Italy
Napoleon Survives
Person Union -France & NI - becomes a Political Union.
Naples annexs Papal States.

Why would Naples annex the Papacy? they were hardly the mpost secular or revolutionary region IIRC.

also, does Modern France+ that have to be all of the state? because if not maybe a surviving Frankish Empire?
 
The most obvious POD would be that Lombardia is coupled with West Francia in the Treaty of Verdun. Not sure how realistic this is though, and how realistic it is that the political union could be maintained. I think geographic obstacles would make it almost impossible for France to keep northern Italy.
 
I think geographic obstacles would make it almost impossible for France to keep northern Italy.

France has a coast near Northern Italy's coast though, and no one in between, so I'd think that would make up for any geographic issues, especially since most cities are on the coast, and in th case of Italy even the inland ones are'nt that far from the coast relatively speaking.
 
The most obvious POD would be that Lombardia is coupled with West Francia in the Treaty of Verdun. Not sure how realistic this is though, and how realistic it is that the political union could be maintained. I think geographic obstacles would make it almost impossible for France to keep northern Italy.

France has a coast near Northern Italy's coast though, and no one in between, so I'd think that would make up for any geographic issues, especially since most cities are on the coast, and in th case of Italy even the inland ones are'nt that far from the coast relatively speaking.

Culturally, it is very possible

Kingdom of Naples
Kingdom of North Italy
Napoleon Survives
Person Union -France & NI - becomes a Political Union.
Naples annexs Papal States.
It only happens if there is a 'Italian Revolution' by the people from the papal states ,tuscany and Naples it is more likely that Naples gets Tuscany and Papal States if that happens and vatican city will still exist in that timeline.
 
Hmm, it does appear that some alternate Napolean is needed to get that.

Btw I wouldn't exactly call the MS line the border between GalloR and ItaloR. It's a bit more complicated than that: here
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I think a good POD might be during the Habsburg-Valois Italian Wars of the early 1500's. Allowing Francis to retain the Duchy of Milan (+Parma which we could assume wouldn't be detached) would provide France with the necessary cisalpine foothold to begin expanding. IOTL in addition to Milan France also occupied Saluzzo for a period of time. Add that along with Genoa and eventually Mantua and a cowed Savoy and you have French hegemony in Lombardy by the 18th century. The Veneto is trickier but again the POD could work such that France occupies part of the Terra Firma, at least Brescia and Bergamo to start.

As for Italy south of the line perhaps Spain occupies Florence and Siena rather than putting the Medeci in charge as Grand Dukes. I can't work out all the details in my head but that's a rough outline of how to get the dividing line between their spheres of influence and thus of potential future states to follow Massa-Senigallia. I think you'd necessarily have to have a POD somewhere further back than the revolution in order to create a lasting Franco-Lombard state.
 
I think a good POD might be during the Habsburg-Valois Italian Wars of the early 1500's. Allowing Francis to retain the Duchy of Milan (+Parma which we could assume wouldn't be detached) would provide France with the necessary cisalpine foothold to begin expanding. IOTL in addition to Milan France also occupied Saluzzo for a period of time. Add that along with Genoa and eventually Mantua and a cowed Savoy and you have French hegemony in Lombardy by the 18th century. The Veneto is trickier but again the POD could work such that France occupies part of the Terra Firma, at least Brescia and Bergamo to start.

As for Italy south of the line perhaps Spain occupies Florence and Siena rather than putting the Medeci in charge as Grand Dukes. I can't work out all the details in my head but that's a rough outline of how to get the dividing line between their spheres of influence and thus of potential future states to follow Massa-Senigallia. I think you'd necessarily have to have a POD somewhere further back than the revolution in order to create a lasting Franco-Lombard state.
The easier way to do that is to have the pope be transferred to avignon permanently.
 
Because the Line runs [look at map] ~ Tuscany - NE across The Italian Peninsula. And the OP asks for the Line to be the Border.

DuQuense

The classical Papal states area is still mainly south of the line. Only the bit in the east around of Revenna is north of the line.

I quite like the idea of a different Treaty of Verdun. Instead of the awkward and redicious Lotharinga have the partition of the Frankish empire being into south, east and west. As such the southern state gets the Italian lands but instead of a thin streak of territory between its neighbours it gets the Occitan region of what's now SE France and say the Alpine uplands. With their regional language they could fit into a state with N Italy as easily as France and have common links via the Med.

Steve
 
Hmm, it does appear that some alternate Napolean is needed to get that.

Btw I wouldn't exactly call the MS line the border between GalloR and ItaloR. It's a bit more complicated than that: here

Emilio Romagnolo and Piedmontese are related to Arpetan/Franco-Provençal they use oi for yes.
 
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