challenge: make Troodon dinosaurs evolve with humans

[Titus_Pullo]

One of the last species of Dinosaurs to survive long after the asteroid impact was a species of raptor dinosaurs called Troodon which paleontologists atribute to their intelligence, their non specialized omnivorous diet and the fact that they were feathered allowing them to weather down the post impact winter, but for one reason or another even they didn't make it. So what if, they did manage to survive and evolve into intelligent dinosauroids would it still be possible for mammals to evolve the way they did in otl and eventually with humans? They don't necessarily have to be as smart as humans, or even outmatch them in reporduction and population, would it be possible? In 1982, Dale Russell, then curator of vertebrate fossils at the National Museum of Canada noted that there had been a steady increase in the encephalization quotient or EQ (the relative brain weight when compared to other species with the same body weight) among the dinosaurs. Physically they had all the makings of evolving into human like creatures, binocular vision, partially opposing thumbs, bipedal. With the extinction of the bigger dinosaurs, I think its possible for humans to also evolve. So ignoring the fact that they still might have preyed on the early rat like mammals to crawl out of their holes, or the fact that Troodon might have gone extinct at some other future time and fastforwarding to the present, what might the world look like with humans and troodontid dinosauroids populating the earth.

 

[Tangerine]

what might the world look like with humans and troodontid dinosauroids populating the earth.

Totally unrecognizable.

The premise is ASB... There's no way you're getting humans evolving with a POD tens of millions of years ago. The POD would probably have to predate the origin of the entire primate order, for one thing... Whether or not a member of troodon could evolve into something possessing human-like intelligence is another matter altogether.

 

[Sven]

One of the last species of Dinosaurs to survive long after the asteroid impact was a species of raptor dinosaurs called Troodon...

Is this sort of an in-character OTL fact? Because it didn't happen in our timeline: a couple of dinosaur bones have been found just a few ten thousand years beyond the K-T boundary, all of which are controversial and none of which are Troodon.

But, I don't think it's totally unfeasible for a couple dinosaur groups to survive the K-T extinction. And, I think tiny, insectivorous or omnivorous maniraptors would be the most likely candidates.

However, I disagree very strongly with the previous poster. Evolution is not a personal journey of discovery and self-improvement that species embark on by themselves: it's an intensely interactive process of give-and-take between many dynamic, living components of ecosystems. If you change the evolution of one species, or save one species from extinction, then you cannot avoid changing the evolution of many, if not all, the other species that interact with that species. And, particularly if you're going back 65 million years for your PoD, any change you make will probably render the world entirely unrecognizable by modern times.

In order to contain the butterflies, you should have troodontids survive only on South America, which was isolated from the rest of the world until about 3 million years ago, when the Isthmus of Panama formed. This would allow you to have troodontids disperse into North America (and, less likely, into Asia), without risking butterflying humans away.

In 1982, Dale Russell, then curator of vertebrate fossils at the National Museum of Canada noted that there had been a steady increase in the encephalization quotient or EQ (the relative brain weight when compared to other species with the same body weight) among the dinosaurs. Physically they had all the makings of evolving into human like creatures, binocular vision, partially opposing thumbs, bipedal.

So, let's be honest: this was really crappy science. Troodon's EQ was still far below the EQ of birds, which means it really wasn't all that intelligent. It was only big-brained relative to other dinosaurs, which isn't really saying much. And, Russell's "Dinosauroid" was really poorly thought-out: he treated evolution as a teleological process, assuming that anything an intelligent being would need, evolution would provide for it in order for it to get there (e.g. a placenta). And, he somehow convinced himself that anthropomorphism is a prerequisite for intelligence.

Stick with non-sapient dinosaurs: it's more reasonable. Maybe you could bump it up to crow-level or chimp-level intelligence through some evolutionary pressures introduced during their time in South America, but I don't see them becoming sapient.

 

[The BigI]

So, let's be honest: this was really crappy science. Troodon's EQ was still far below the EQ of birds, which means it really wasn't all that intelligent. It was only big-brained relative to other dinosaurs, which isn't really saying much. And, Russell's "Dinosauroid" was really poorly thought-out: he treated evolution as a teleological process, assuming that anything an intelligent being would need, evolution would provide for it in order for it to get there (e.g. a placenta). And, he somehow convinced himself that anthropomorphism is a prerequisite for intelligence.

How sapiant were our ancestors when they left the trees? Considering how much more time the Troodon why can't they be at the time humanity leaves the trees that they are at least...possibly a bit more intelligent.?

 

[Sven]

How sapiant were our ancestors when they left the trees? Considering how much more time the Troodon why can't they be at the time humanity leaves the trees that they are at least...possibly a bit more intelligent.?

Using this logic, we might as well pick an organism at random and turn it into a sapient.

 

[The BigI]

Using this logic, we might as well pick an organism at random and turn it into a sapient.

Isn't that what we are doing here?

 

[Tallest Skil]

Using this logic, we might as well pick an organism at random and turn it into a sapient.

"The war was fierce, but we finally drove back the Venus Man Traps. Their pollen artillery withered under the glare of our solar reflectors and their fast-growing slime mold bombs tasted our flamethrower regiments.

Now their kind are all but extinct, relegated to a few pockets of heavily guarded and monitored rainforest in South America, Africa, and Indonesia…"

 

[kellineil]

But, I don't think it's totally unfeasible for a couple dinosaur groups to survive the K-T extinction. And, I think tiny, insectivorous or omnivorous maniraptors would be the most likely candidates.

A couple of dinosaur groups did survive the K-T extinction. They are what we call birds. The 2 groups are the ratites (ostriches, emus etc) and neognathae (everything else). These groups diverged before K-T

I know that people often try and distinguish dinosaurs and birds but it really is a very false division. A similar question would be "What if amphibians had survived beyond the Triassic?" The question ignores the fact that they did.

It is possible that non-avian dinosaur fossils have/will be found in the strata relating to a few thousand years after K-T. I doubt all the genera that went extinct did so immediately. Saying that, the suggested POD is ASB TBH (sorry, couldn't resist adding another TLA). If Troodon had survived K-T the butterflies would have completely changed evolutionary history. 65 Million years is a long time and a lot can happen.

 

[Titus_Pullo]

A couple of dinosaur groups did survive the K-T extinction. They are what we call birds. The 2 groups are the ratites (ostriches, emus etc) and neognathae (everything else). These groups diverged before K-T

I know that people often try and distinguish dinosaurs and birds but it really is a very false division. A similar question would be "What if amphibians had survived beyond the Triassic?" The question ignores the fact that they did.

Yes I know. And I should have been more clear. What I meant was if it was possible for any other dinosaurs (apart from birds) to survive the mass extinction and develop sentient intelligence (not necessarily on the par with humans but certainly close enough, maybe with the intelligence of let's say homo erectus without butterflying away the higher mammals and humans.

And Troodon was a bird-like dinosaur.


The BBC did a show on this very same subject and I found it very interesting. Reptilian Aliens and Dinosauroids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiEmem2rFOY

 

[eschaton]

If you wanted to have a non-avian dinosaur survive somewhere where there would be minimal effects on human evolution, you'd have to pick Madagascar, or perhaps Australia or South America. It does not appear the direct line for human ancestry was ever in any of those places, so if you take a very liberal idea for a butterfly net, you might be able to get humanity to still evolve. You might even be able to get something similar to human history, barring the butterflies caused to human settlement of these continents. Practically speaking, it's extremely unlikely, but it's not quite as ASB.

Persoanlly, I've always like the idea of Alverezsaurs surviving K/T. They were teeny little termite specialists, just the kind of weird niche that relict species often occupy today.

 

[Tangerine]

However, I disagree very strongly with the previous poster. Evolution is not a personal journey of discovery and self-improvement that species embark on by themselves: it's an intensely interactive process of give-and-take between many dynamic, living components of ecosystems. If you change the evolution of one species, or save one species from extinction, then you cannot avoid changing the evolution of many, if not all, the other species that interact with that species. And, particularly if you're going back 65 million years for your PoD, any change you make will probably render the world entirely unrecognizable by modern times.

How is this a disagreement with my post? You basically repeated my viewpoint in more words. Just curious.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

It would probably butterfly away humanity. Still, smells like ASB.

 

[Titus_Pullo]

If you wanted to have a non-avian dinosaur survive somewhere where there would be minimal effects on human evolution, you'd have to pick Madagascar, or perhaps Australia or South America. It does not appear the direct line for human ancestry was ever in any of those places, so if you take a very liberal idea for a butterfly net, you might be able to get humanity to still evolve. You might even be able to get something similar to human history, barring the butterflies caused to human settlement of these continents. Practically speaking, it's extremely unlikely, but it's not quite as ASB.

Persoanlly, I've always like the idea of Alverezsaurs surviving K/T. They were teeny little termite specialists, just the kind of weird niche that relict species often occupy today.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe a viable population could survive in isolation in Australia and when the ancestors of the aborigenees arrive there they encounter these dinosapiens, I wonder who's going to win the conquest of Australia?

 

[981101128]

That's what I was thinking. Maybe a viable population could survive in isolation in Australia and when the ancestors of the aborigenees arrive there they encounter these dinosapiens, I wonder who's going to win the conquest of Australia?

Well if the "Dinos" were never able to develop technology to sail and expand out of Australia, I would assume the aborigenees would probably have a tech edge over them.

Still think this should be in ASB though.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Yeah, even if the Troodons and their decendants survive into the Eocene, there is still the Eocene extinction coming. Would the dino decendants really survive the sudden climate changes? Also, there would still be so many butterflies. And would probably end with nature being something completely else than it is today.

 

[stewacide]

If any non-primate group was going to develop human-level intelligence I think bipedal dinosaurs were it, since they have their hands free to use and make tools. Really, it could have happens at any time after bipedalism evolved (i.e. even hundreds of millions of years ago).

 

[eschaton]

If any non-primate group was going to develop human-level intelligence I think bipedal dinosaurs were it, since they have their hands free to use and make tools. Really, it could have happens at any time after bipedalism evolved (i.e. even hundreds of millions of years ago).

People always tend to overestimate how usful theropod hands were. In fact, they could not rotate their wrists, meaning their palms were essentially always facing one another. Yes many more birdlike ones (including Troodon) could bend their whole hand backwards towards the elbow, but that isn't as useful for item manipulation. Really, if they did develop into an intelligent species, they'd probably use both their mouth and hands for tool manipulation.

 

[stewacide]

People always tend to overestimate how usful theropod hands were. In fact, they could not rotate their wrists, meaning their palms were essentially always facing one another. Yes many more birdlike ones (including Troodon) could bend their whole hand backwards towards the elbow, but that isn't as useful for item manipulation. Really, if they did develop into an intelligent species, they'd probably use both their mouth and hands for tool manipulation.

Makes sense. So the ideal then would be a climbing species (with sophisticated hands and arms) that then becomes bipedal (freeing them up)... Has that ever happened except with primates?

 

[Domoviye]

"The war was fierce, but we finally drove back the Venus Man Traps. Their pollen artillery withered under the glare of our solar reflectors and their fast-growing slime mold bombs tasted our flamethrower regiments.

Now their kind are all but extinct, relegated to a few pockets of heavily guarded and monitored rainforest in South America, Africa, and Indonesia…"

That would be an awesome story.

 

[Sven]

I know that people often try and distinguish dinosaurs and birds but it really is a very false division. A similar question would be "What if amphibians had survived beyond the Triassic?" The question ignores the fact that they did.

I am a professional biologist. But, even I can't be bothered to write "non-avian dinosaurs" every time.

If Troodon had survived K-T the butterflies would have completely changed evolutionary history. 65 Million years is a long time and a lot can happen.

This is why I suggested the OP have a troodontid survive in South America, which was completely isolated from the rest of the world from the Paleocene until about 3 million years ago. In this case, the only butterflies would be in South America. So, humans would still evolve in the Old World as in OTL, and, in fact, the Old World could be essentially identical to OTL, feasibly up until the point when Europeans first reached the Americas.