Challenge: Make France and Germany powerfull AND friendly

Challenge: Make France and Germany powerfull AND friendly

I like GrossDeutshland's maps, but they're always bullying France, which I also like big :p, when Alsace-Lorraine isn't really needed to make germany powerfull.
So how to make France and Germany both powerfull nation in the same time ? And to make them ally ?

Bonus if France get the rhine border. Germany can have all she can want in the east.


(escuse my language, english isn't my first.:eek:
I've tried it in the post 1900 thread, but it's truly too difficult to make this TL after the Franco-prussian War)
 
Last edited:
Well, it's possible to make them "friendly" by having someone else in europe who is threatening to both of them and is powerful enough to scare them into an alliance. If Alexander II doesn't get assassinated, his reforms might strengthen Russia enough to make it the 300 lb gorilla sitting in Europe's corner. Post 1900 is actually quite easy, if the nazi's never come to power, the whole "bulwark against communism" idea probably comes into effect.
 

Susano

Banned
Did you not make such a thread already? Most of us visit both post and pre 1900, you know ;)

Yes, "whatever we want" in the east is of sooo much use to us, considering that it is full of, well, non-German ethnicities. Whereas west of the Rhine Germans live. And in the Alsace, too. Thats the reason why they should be German. Actually, the OTL Alsace-Lorraine border went closely to the lingual border, except for Metz and some other additional extensions. But then the Kaiserreich went and fucked it all up by treating A-L like a colony *sighs*. Though I do think France can be strong even without full Rhine border, and if need be also without the Alsace ;)
 
Well, it's possible to make them "friendly" by having someone else in europe who is threatening to both of them and is powerful enough to scare them into an alliance. If Alexander II doesn't get assassinated, his reforms might strengthen Russia enough to make it the 300 lb gorilla sitting in Europe's corner. Post 1900 is actually quite easy, if the nazi's never come to power, the whole "bulwark against communism" idea probably comes into effect.

I think a powerful russia would scare germany, but why france?
we need something near to both parties
UK?
:D Or, maybe, there is the war-mongering Belgium :D
 
Once German unification rolls around, there is a lot of bad blood here. France isn't going to forget the Franco-Prussian war, and the Germans have their own grudges against the last few wars of France.

So, one needs to either unite Germany in a way that does not put it at odds with France, or conjure up some reason that they should forget past emnities.

For the former, perhaps if a unified germany grew up from french support? Its hard to imagine too many other ways, since a germany that united itself without french aid is sooner or later going to clash with french expansionist visions. Perhaps the confederation of the rhine, or some similar grouping, gets used as a nucleus? Actually, here's a thought. Maybe the revolutionary french state manages to sort itself out politically without falling into empire, and secures some sort of peace in europe. To counterbalance Austria in Germany, they ally with the smaller states in the west, gradually galvanizing them together as an ally. A generation or two and a few wars later, we have the bulk of Germany coalesce into a state closely aligned with France, although Prussia and Austria would still need to be dealt with.

Or, Bismarck gets canned (or never enters politics) or is a bit less successful, Prussia does a bit less well in the ensuing decades, and Louis-Napoleon actively backs it against Austria in the same manner that he did Sardinia. Again, with French backing, it conquers most of the German states, although the Habsburgs hold out.

We could muck around with earlier PODs as well, but that gets a bit hard.

Or, if we try to find a post-1871 path, have a WWI analogue end in a peace of exhaustion. No real territorial adjustments except where necessary to secure peace; the key point is that it scars all the countries involved and leaves them disinterested in continuing with the hostilities. Perhaps this could convince the French and Germans that peace is a better option.
 
A deranged mad scientist goes back in time to 1869 and carves an enormous chasm between France and Germany, then going so far as to carve through the bedrock of one of these nations and floating it to a lovely tropical climate with a fleet of Ottoman dirigibles.

The newly tropical South Pacific nation of France/Germany no longer has any problems with their former neighbor and...:D
 

wormyguy

Banned
I'm tempted to make it a Carolingian POD. In fact, simply make the Carolingian Empire survive. It is "France and Germany," and it's also "powerful."
 

Glen

Moderator
One obvious POD is the removal of the Franco-Prussian war as a start.

Another might be to have Britain and France go to war over Fashoda, which might push France to ally with Germany!:eek:

The Entente Powers:
France
Germany
Russia

The Allied Powers:
Britain
Italy
Austro-Hungary
 

wormyguy

Banned
I fail to see why Italy and Austria-Hungary would spontaneously decide to commit suicide for no reason.

Most likely a Fashoda war is a dogpile with France, Germany, Russia, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire, along with Japan and possibly the United States against Britain.
 
As I think about it ... yes, I guess this really is a cool scenario:

The French revolution time develops differently, let's say the king is assassinated in 1790, there is a big split between revolutionaries which welcome this, those who would rather have had a lawsuit and execution, and those indignant at the regicide - anyway, France sinks into chaos, much deeper and gorier than IOTL. Nevertheless, the respective revolutionary movements make their way into the rest of Europe undermining parts of Germany and Poland.

The German princes feel threatened by the destabilization, and fear revolutionary moods at home. Consequently, they make a deal and SPONSOR THE RESTAURATION OF FRANCE.

How about that?
 
I think a powerful russia would scare germany, but why france?
we need something near to both parties
UK?
:D Or, maybe, there is the war-mongering Belgium :D

Powerful pseudo-fascist Anglo-Russian alliance, a threat to the German and French democracies as they, in the absence of world wars between them, let time heal the wounds over A-L until a linguistic border can be charted?

*cough* FabR *cough*
 
Top