Challenge: make Bavaria seceed from Prussia in 1919

There is still another argument against a separatist Bavaria, of all places, as contrasted with a separate Saarland or Rhineland: in order to prop up the separate regime with troops, you need secure supply lines, and these lines are not secure if they run across Baden or Württemberg territory that is still part of the Reich.
Very good point, and not easy to work around, unless by estalishing an "international conrtolled" corridor (Danzig-like) under thr protecton of french-italian troops (extending it to a piece of austria, too).
On the other hand, since what is about to happen in Italy, things would crumble in a few years

And then there is the question why a French government should go to the trouble of installing a separatist regime at all. Why not take a desirable and militarily defensible chunk out of Germany beyond Alsace and Lorraine, that is contiguous with French territory, and turn it into a few new French departements?
Ah, but that way french would appear explicitly as the bad guys wanting to annex land.
(not that people would think otherwise in case of a french-puppet slice-of-germany state, but that way they wold save the appearence, at least)



Anyway, I'm afraid that being what I am makes me cynic
My point is that if in the Xyz state a foreign power go to mister little-zed and says him: "why not to secede the z province from the Xyz state? that way you will not be mister little-zed anymore, but you will be President Little-Zed of the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic.", then at least mister little-zed will turn into collaborationist (and so his family, and so the newly-appointed ministers of the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic, and the new shiny high-bureaucracy, and their family, and also a few lunatics who really wanted some sort of independence).
What I am saying in short is that some support is going to materialize, since where you formerly had 1 set of highly-payed jobs (Xyz) now you have 2 (both Xy-with-claims-on-z and the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic)
 

Susano

Banned
Im afraid that doesnt work. Its not a matter of being cynic or not, its a matter of administration apparatus size (the number of people swayed by what you suggest is way too small), population size (even if a sizeable, loyal administration apparatus can be set up, the masses must be kept down somehow) and well, ideology (nationalism IS a factor, like it or not).
 
Im afraid that doesnt work. Its not a matter of being cynic or not, its a matter of administration apparatus size (the number of people swayed by what you suggest is way too small), population size (even if a sizeable, loyal administration apparatus can be set up, the masses must be kept down somehow) and well, ideology (nationalism IS a factor, like it or not).

:D I hoped that panzers were to take a rest at Easter :D
 

Markus

Banned
My 2 cents:

If the ToV had seperated Bavaria from Germany, the No.1 goal of all Germans would have been Re-unification. The same goes for the Bavarians.;)
Jokes aside, the Germans never even accepted the loss of German territorry to Poland, imagine what reaction this would trigger.

And one also needs to know that Bavaria was poor!
 
Anyway, I'm afraid that being what I am makes me cynic
My point is that if in the Xyz state a foreign power go to mister little-zed and says him: "why not to secede the z province from the Xyz state? that way you will not be mister little-zed anymore, but you will be President Little-Zed of the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic.", then at least mister little-zed will turn into collaborationist (and so his family, and so the newly-appointed ministers of the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic, and the new shiny high-bureaucracy, and their family, and also a few lunatics who really wanted some sort of independence).
What I am saying in short is that some support is going to materialize, since where you formerly had 1 set of highly-payed jobs (Xyz) now you have 2 (both Xy-with-claims-on-z and the Sovereign and Independent New Z Banana Republic)
I do not know whether you are a cynic in life in general, and as far as your description of the behavior of collaborationists is concerned, I would rather call it realistic than cynical.

But the fact that you get some people that will collaborate in almost any situation, does not mean that the best people will collaborate, or even enough people of moderate abilities. The picture of the "petty princelings" in the small German states that was drawn in the history school books that I read in the early seventies was somewhat contemptuous and the attitude shown by some German nineteenth century caricaturists showed the same contempt. But these princelings at least had inherited their thrones, rightfully, in the judgements of their contemporaries (although the princelings' forefathers also just might owe their position to French power). If you get your position of petty power from an enemy country, you will be despised doubly: for ruling only over a petty state, and for being the creature of the enemy. Some people might be willing to do it all the same, but there won't be so many people of abilities. And the lack of talent in the collaborationists' government will reduce the credibility still more.
 

Susano

Banned
I agree.
And I write just three letters: DDR
Its like talking against a wall! The problems with that comparisons have already been told numerous times. The GDR could secure the loyalty of at least some people due to pandering to ideology, the German population as a whole was not inclined after 1945 to offer any resistance, and the USSR had the troops to spare - France did not.
 
Its like talking against a wall! The problems with that comparisons have already been told numerous times. The GDR could secure the loyalty of at least some people due to pandering to ideology, the German population as a whole was not inclined after 1945 to offer any resistance, and the USSR had the troops to spare - France did not.

Uhm.
From what I knew, the situation of civilian population was far worse in '18-'19 than in '45-'45, and germany had been cowed in submission ("starved in submission" would be a more appropriate term) by the blockade.
I remember recounts of people boiling grass since they had on else to eat.
However, it could simply be that I have inaccurate data: do you have different ones?

Regarding french not having troops to spare in occupation duty, at least until 1921 (the Fiume affaire) they had a military presence in yugoslavia, and of course they were in the rhineland, not counting that they were a colonial empire
 
Uhm.
From what I knew, the situation of civilian population was far worse in '18-'19 than in '45-'45,

Whereas the situation in 1945 was actually better than at the end of WW1 (due to the after-effects of plundering Europe and letting others starve - ask the Dutch about 1945), the situation got very bad for 1946/47. Taking the aftermath of both wars into account, I wouldn't say that 1918ff was far worse than 1945ff. Nutrition is not everything, how about housing and refugees? These problems were far worse after WW2.


and germany had been cowed in submission ("starved in submission" would be a more appropriate term) by the blockade.

Malnutrition was a severe problem in WW1. But Germany was defeated on the battlefield. Sad but true.


I remember recounts of people boiling grass since they had on else to eat.
However, it could simply be that I have inaccurate data: do you have different ones?

I am sorry not to come up with hard data. I remember that the situation in Austria-Hungary was actually even worse than in Germany. Boiling grass should have been quite an exception in Germany, though! I have heard desperate stories like that rather in the context of the "Flucht" of 1945. The German cultural consciousness kept the Rutabaga in memory ("Steckrübenwinter"). Whereas the Steckrübe is not exactly a gourmet's dream, I personally prefer it to grass and tree-roots.
 
Not that it sounds appetizing, but what is it?
A kind of vegetable. Also know as a 'swede' or 'Swedish turnip'. The Swedish name for it means, literally, 'cabbage-root', which is what it is- a brassica where the stuff eaten is beneath the ground.
There are actually people out there that like the stuff, especially mashed, but for all that I might dislike it, it is quite edible, and certainly more nutritious for humans than tree-roots or grass.
 
As we call it "Kohlrabi" where I live, I didn't realize that it was the actual "Steckrübe" of World War I until recently.

It is absolutely acceptable as a side-dish when you have rice or potatoes (and meat) with it and I encountered it many times as a kid (meaning the 80s). But as your main base of nutrition.....well, war is not fun.
 
A kind of vegetable. Also know as a 'swede' or 'Swedish turnip'. The Swedish name for it means, literally, 'cabbage-root', which is what it is- a brassica where the stuff eaten is beneath the ground.
There are actually people out there that like the stuff, especially mashed, but for all that I might dislike it, it is quite edible, and certainly more nutritious for humans than tree-roots or grass.

Now I think I see how that could become a "root" in a transaltion and giving an inaccurate idea of the situation.
(however, since a root is not grass, the documents I have on the matter are clearly inaccurate)
 
As we call it "Kohlrabi" where I live, I didn't realize that it was the actual "Steckrübe" of World War I until recently.

It is absolutely acceptable as a side-dish when you have rice or potatoes (and meat) with it and I encountered it many times as a kid (meaning the 80s). But as your main base of nutrition.....well, war is not fun.
No, not the same as a Kohlrabi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutabaga
It's a cross between cabbage and turnip, apparently.

Me, I like rutabagas (just don't cook them, that makes them awful)
 
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