Challenge:Logical Central Asian Borders

Rockingham

Banned
Seeing as how Stalin made a total and utter(albeit deliberate)mess of Central Asia's borders....what would more logical borders look like? And what POD could achieve Central Asian borders that didn't actually look like a jigsaw puzzle:rolleyes:?
 

ninebucks

Banned
Trying to divide nomadic peoples into static national boundaries is a ridiculous idea in the first place.

If it were me, I'd drop 'western' ideas surrounding nationalities as soon as I crossed the Urals, and just create the constituent republics along the lines of the naturally geographically-contiguous regions.

Central Asia would be divided into three constituent parts: The East Caspian SSR, consisting of the western halves of OTL Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, and the southwestern corner of Kazakhstan; The Tian Shan SSR, consisting of the eastern half of OTL Kyrghyzstan, and running longways across the Chinese border; And the Fergana Valley SSR, consisting of all the OTL fiddly jigsaw-piece bits in the middle, running from the border of Aghanistan in the south, to the centre of Kazakhstan in the north.

The northern half of Kazakhstan will be incorporated directly into the RSFSR.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Seeing as how Stalin made a total and utter(albeit deliberate)mess of Central Asia's borders....what would more logical borders look like? And what POD could achieve Central Asian borders that didn't actually look like a jigsaw puzzle:rolleyes:?
Give them all back to Russia, duh.




:winkytongue:
 
Maybe this, based on a map of pre-1917 Central Russia I saw ages ago.

 
Actually CA borders are pretty well drawn, as virtual absence of cross-border guerilla today seem to prove (all militancy largely directed against either "newcomer" ethnic groups or flares between clans of the same ethnic origin). They are extremely complicated, reflecting complicated character of settlement, but Stalin did not settle Uzbeks or Sarts where they lived, he just draw borders reflecting situation on the ground. Borders could be even completely arbitrary along the lines of ninebucks's idea, reflecting convenience of colonial administration (in the Somali fashion, and look how much good it did in Africa, with scourge of tribalism eating continent's guts for last half-century) or even more complicated, as Stalin built new "nations" out of related ethnic and linguistic groups, which otherwise could demand separate "national homes". Imagine 3 or 4 statelets occupying today's Uzbekistan, 3 Kazakhstans (Senior, Middle, Junior Hordes) and so on, 2 or 3 Tajikistans (although, in all fairness, this country today is a federation of two largely independent and hostile parts).
 
Back then there weren't very many Russians in Kazakhstan - that wouldn't make too much sense.

Best to just lump it all together as Turkistan. At the time the dialects were all easily mutually intelligible, except the Iranian languages, but there was a lot of bilingualism.

Trying to divide nomadic peoples into static national boundaries is a ridiculous idea in the first place.

If it were me, I'd drop 'western' ideas surrounding nationalities as soon as I crossed the Urals, and just create the constituent republics along the lines of the naturally geographically-contiguous regions.

Central Asia would be divided into three constituent parts: The East Caspian SSR, consisting of the western halves of OTL Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, and the southwestern corner of Kazakhstan; The Tian Shan SSR, consisting of the eastern half of OTL Kyrghyzstan, and running longways across the Chinese border; And the Fergana Valley SSR, consisting of all the OTL fiddly jigsaw-piece bits in the middle, running from the border of Aghanistan in the south, to the centre of Kazakhstan in the north.

The northern half of Kazakhstan will be incorporated directly into the RSFSR.
 
Maybe this, based on a map of pre-1917 Central Russia I saw ages ago.


It's not bad, but you;ve handed all the Turkmens to Khiva, which is not going to turn out well - I suppose it could under a communist regime, but Khiva has a pretty small population and the Turkmens are nomads.
 
I think a useful feature would be a bi-national Uzbek-Tajik state. These 2 are very mixed. It's not just that the current borders don't reflect ethnic realities, it's that no borders could. I'm surprised there wasn't conflict there when the Soviet Union began to fall apart.
 


1- Aktobe? (Junior Horde)
2- Karagandy? (Middle Horde)
3- Almaty? (Senior Horde)
4- Turkmenistan
5- Karakalpakstan
6- Uzbekistan
7- Tajikistan?
8- Kyrgystan
9- Kohistan-Badakhshan or Gorno-Badakhshan
 
Lets face it, the most logical borders would be natural borders which partition the region betwene Russia, Persia, and China.
 
leave the afghan, chinese, russian and iranian borders where they are...

Write 'Here be Dragons' in the space they surround :p
 
It's not bad, but you;ve handed all the Turkmens to Khiva, which is not going to turn out well - I suppose it could under a communist regime, but Khiva has a pretty small population and the Turkmens are nomads.

This map says they were already ruled by Khiva before the Russians came (though it could be only nominal/barely held control).

 
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