Challenge : Latin Rite European Muslim Culture !!

Your challenge, should you accept it, by without any ASB or climatical changes interferences, with PoD no earlier than 650 have a Romance speaking Muslim nation with Latin-based culture to be formed by 1000s at the latest, IN EUROPE ! Its culture can be as Arabian-influenced as OTL England is Latin-influenced, but no more.
 
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Perhaps ATL Muslim armies were able to take Tours and eventually Paris in the mid 8th century. I'm not sure if the Umayyads would have instituted a dhimmi system and let Christianity survive with severe penalties, or convert the Frankish people directly to Islam. If the Franks were made dhimmi, I could see a mixture of Christian Latin and Islamic Arabic (as in Spain), with the Gallican church surviving to some degree liturgically and contributing to the mixed culture. I think this possibility would be diminished if the Franks were forcibly converted to Islam with little chance for the survival of vulgar and liturgical Latin. I think this question also revolves around the sophistication of Frankish Christianity and the development of intellectual culture in this region. I know absolutely nothing about 8th century western European rural life, so I can't comment on that tangent.

Culturally, who knows? Perhaps Muslim Spain of the same period provides a similar example of the mix of languages, religions, and cultural sensibilites. From my (limited) understanding, Muslim Iberia was a somewhat culturally fluid place, with Jews, Christians, and Muslims interacting intellectually and culturally to varying degrees over time and with varying degrees of personal freedom for the dhimmi. Maybe that's what would have happened in France, but no one knows for certain.
 

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Errrrmmm, this actually happened. Islamic literacy can only be in Arabic, but I doubt many Andalusi Musllims north of a line drawn from Valencia to Cordoba ever spoke Arabic (elites excepted).
 
Perhaps if the Visigothic kingdom in Spain was never actually conquered by Muslim forces, but ended up mostly converting to Islam over time because of strong cultural and trade influences? Arabic would be the language of religion and scholarship, but pretty much everyone (including the elites) would speak a Latin-descended language as their first language.
 
Errrrmmm, this actually happened. Islamic literacy can only be in Arabic, but I doubt many Andalusi Musllims north of a line drawn from Valencia to Cordoba ever spoke Arabic (elites excepted).

What did the Andalusi Muslims speak? Some form of Old Spanish?

The Mozarabic liturgy was celebrated for some time in Arabic (later in Latin, even after the Roman Missal was imposed after Trent). It seems then than Arabic was not only a literary or liturgical language for Muslims but also to an extent for Christians as well.
 

Deleted member 5719

What did the Andalusi Muslims speak? Some form of Old Spanish?

The Mozarabic liturgy was celebrated for some time in Arabic (later in Latin, even after the Roman Missal was imposed after Trent). It seems then than Arabic was not only a literary or liturgical language for Muslims but also to an extent for Christians as well.

Good question. Nobody is actually 100% sure. It's certain that in Zaragoza many Muslims spoke the Romance dialect of neighbouring Aragon, as there are references to it in histories (including one incidence where a King of Aragon was assassinated by a Muslim who infiltrated his camp and passed for Aragonese, it is mentioned that he spoke Aragonese perfectly).

The latinate Mozarabic language was written by Christians in the south, and probably spoken by people of other religions outside the cities.

I suspect the most Arabized regions were the cities of Granada, Almeria, Valencia, Malaga, Cordoba and Sevilla, at times the Muslims there may not even have spoken a Romance dialect. But I doubt if the peasantry ever really gave up speaking Romance (except in Granada and Malaga).
 
I suspect the most Arabized regions were the cities of Granada, Almeria, Valencia, Malaga, Cordoba and Sevilla, at times the Muslims there may not even have spoken a Romance dialect. But I doubt if the peasantry ever really gave up speaking Romance (except in Granada and Malaga).

Interesting. Were there any compositions written in common, non-literary languages as well? I guess the mystery over what the romance languages spoken in the 8th or 9th century and beyond would be easier to solve if there were some written record of the evolution of Romance in that region. But then again, as you note, Romance was the language of the probably illiterate. Still, one might imagine that a gloss between Romance and Arabic, or Romance and Latin, might exist.
 
Perhaps ATL Muslim armies were able to take Tours and eventually Paris in the mid 8th century. I'm not sure if the Umayyads would have instituted a dhimmi system and let Christianity survive with severe penalties, or convert the Frankish people directly to Islam. If the Franks were made dhimmi, I could see a mixture of Christian Latin and Islamic Arabic (as in Spain), with the Gallican church surviving to some degree liturgically and contributing to the mixed culture. I think this possibility would be diminished if the Franks were forcibly converted to Islam with little chance for the survival of vulgar and liturgical Latin. I think this question also revolves around the sophistication of Frankish Christianity and the development of intellectual culture in this region. I know absolutely nothing about 8th century western European rural life, so I can't comment on that tangent.

Culturally, who knows? Perhaps Muslim Spain of the same period provides a similar example of the mix of languages, religions, and cultural sensibilites. From my (limited) understanding, Muslim Iberia was a somewhat culturally fluid place, with Jews, Christians, and Muslims interacting intellectually and culturally to varying degrees over time and with varying degrees of personal freedom for the dhimmi. Maybe that's what would have happened in France, but no one knows for certain.

Knowing the Umayyads, case of forced conversion in the relatively short run will almost certainly be ASB. It'll be interesting to see a Gallic Muslim culture, of all things :cool: In fact such far extension of Islamic sphere (add terrain factor to the mix, too !) will make it more difficult for the Arabs to exert their cultural influence there. Now it's just to maintain healthy proximity of the region to Islam ! :cool:

Errrrmmm, this actually happened. Islamic literacy can only be in Arabic, but I doubt many Andalusi Musllims north of a line drawn from Valencia to Cordoba ever spoke Arabic (elites excepted).

Interesting. Was there actually any chance of a muslim entity with Romance-based literacy to rise and dominating at least half of Iberian Peninsula ?

Perhaps if the Visigothic kingdom in Spain was never actually conquered by Muslim forces, but ended up mostly converting to Islam over time because of strong cultural and trade influences? Arabic would be the language of religion and scholarship, but pretty much everyone (including the elites) would speak a Latin-descended language as their first language.

Was the Islamic cultural influence there really on going to be that strong in that time ? From what I know, prior the Umayyad invasion Roman Catholicism was having very good odds in the country, hence why the muslim army was invited in the first place.
 
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By the way, is there anyone who has any idea that at least can potentially lead to muslim (*)Italians or Romanians ? What would be the best way to make Italy(Po Valley included) Islamified ?
 
By the way, is there anyone who has any idea that at least can potentially lead to muslim (*)Italians or Romanians ? What would be the best way to make Italy(Po Valley included) Islamified ?

Well, there was that Emirate of Sicily. The Muslim conquest of Sicily was a long, drawn out affair, which I can see continuing up into mainland Byzantine possessions. It might take a few hundred years, but if we somehow get rid of the Norman invasion, Muslim control of Italy might slowly creep up the boot.

On the other hand, I can't really see them getting up past Rome: Crusades would be called, for sure.
 

Deleted member 5719

Interesting. Was there actually any chance of a muslim entity with Romance-based literacy to rise and dominating at least half of Iberian Peninsula ?

Your best bet for this is the Emirate of Zaragoza, if they could pick up land from the Aragonese and the Catalans, and swallow the small Taifas to their southwest in the 11th century, possibly in the gap between the Almoravid invasions of 1085 and 1090.

Pontifexmaximum: There are texts in Mozarabic, it is heavily Arabic influenced and even written in Arabic script. However, the texts are mostly religious, and aren't the best examples of every-day speech.
 
Well, there was that Emirate of Sicily. The Muslim conquest of Sicily was a long, drawn out affair, which I can see continuing up into mainland Byzantine possessions. It might take a few hundred years, but if we somehow get rid of the Norman invasion, Muslim control of Italy might slowly creep up the boot.

On the other hand, I can't really see them getting up past Rome: Crusades would be called, for sure.

Considering that Po Valley is to be included, maybe the best way is really to have the muslims come from the north via France. Certainly not after a firm level of population density of Italy is already established like during the time frame you've just suggested. But I am tempted to look for a more interesting alternatives, that if possible.... :)

Your best bet for this is the Emirate of Zaragoza, if they could pick up land from the Aragonese and the Catalans, and swallow the small Taifas to their southwest in the 11th century, possibly in the gap between the Almoravid invasions of 1085 and 1090.

Will they be able to have a chance against the Almoravids, or will they basically just make it easier for them ?
 
Will they be able to have a chance against the Almoravids, or will they basically just make it easier for them ?

Apparently it fell because of treachery. The Armenian genocide says that in a desperate attempt to fight both the Almoravids and the Aragonese at the same time, the King of Zaragoza asked for help to the Castilians. Pity the Castilians had fought quite a few wars against the Zaragozans and many of them saw this as treachery, so they staged a coup and opened the gates to their fellow Muslims.

Not bad considering that happened in 1110, 20 years after the Almoravids began to invade the Peninsula. So maybe it would be enough if Alfonso the Battler* doesn't become king of Aragon, and as a result Aragon is weaker and Zaragoza can concentrate its entire attention to the south.

*The guy was a real badass, by the way.
 

Deleted member 5719

Apparently it fell because of treachery. The Armenian genocide says that in a desperate attempt to fight both the Almoravids and the Aragonese at the same time, the King of Zaragoza asked for help to the Castilians. Pity the Castilians had fought quite a few wars against the Zaragozans and many of them saw this as treachery, so they staged a coup and opened the gates to their fellow Muslims.

Not bad considering that happened in 1110, 20 years after the Almoravids began to invade the Peninsula. So maybe it would be enough if Alfonso the Battler* doesn't become king of Aragon, and as a result Aragon is weaker and Zaragoza can concentrate its entire attention to the south.

*The guy was a real badass, by the way.

:) You're making this up, there WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!!!!!
 
A seed would lie here.

If Navarre (and eventually the Austurias) adopt Islam they will use Arabic mainly for liturgical purposes. If the friction between the Arabs, Berbers, and Latin/Visigothic converts to the south occur as in OTL we could see a set of Dynasties sweeping in and establishing Mozarbic as a language of genneral use in the same way that Persian was reestablished far to the east.

HTG
 
A seed would lie here.

If Navarre (and eventually the Austurias) adopt Islam they will use Arabic mainly for liturgical purposes. If the friction between the Arabs, Berbers, and Latin/Visigothic converts to the south occur as in OTL we could see a set of Dynasties sweeping in and establishing Mozarbic as a language of genneral use in the same way that Persian was reestablished far to the east.

HTG

Interesting, but the point that Condotierro had mentioned in that thread is making me curious....

By the way, how about the Romanians ? Can we pull a Romance Speaking Muslim culture out of them ?
 
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