Challenge: Lëtzebuerger Loftwaff (Luxembourg Air Force)

[Pangur]

Back off ? That's the TL's page ! But it isn't publicly accessible yet on the wiki, given that the TL is yet to start properly. I'm using it purely as a work page for now. I'm currently developing the TL's background, so it will still take some time until I write the story down in textbook-style format. The OOB choices on that page are mostly WIPs, so don't take them all at face value.

Please forgive me, it was poorly phased. I am looking forward to that TL

About the Vatican : I've decided to drop it from the roster of the TL's countries. It'll simply be a small neutral country as in OTL. (But I'll give them a nice VIP helo. ) Its replacement will be Malta.

I like that idea, Malta - excellent

 

[Petike]

Please forgive me, it was poorly phased.

No offence taken. I was just baffled by what you meant.

I am looking forward to that TL. I like that idea, Malta - excellent.

The basic premise is indeed "What if European countries with less than a million inhabitants were more badass and didn't need too much babysitting from proper military powers ?".

 

[Pangur]

No offence taken. I was just baffled by what you meant.

What I had tried to say was that your line is going to be written - you are restarting/continuing it

BTW on the above EXCELLENT if that is the case

The basic premise is indeed "What if European countries with less than a million inhabitants were more badass and didn't need too much babysitting from proper military powers ?".

The mighty mice?

 

[Petike]

The mighty mice?

Don't laugh. After many delays, I'm close to finishing some plane profiles for the Roaring Mice - aka, the Duchy of Grand Fenwick Air Force. (Out of date, as everything in GF - but hey, they've still got three airworthy biplanes ! )

 

[Pangur]

Don't laugh. After many delays, I'm close to finishing some plane profiles for the Roaring Mice - aka, the Duchy of Grand Fenwick Air Force. (Out of date, as everything in GF - but hey, they've still got three airworthy biplanes ! )

Excellent, not trying to be pushy however when do you plan to start porting the TL. BTW is there anyway I can help you?

 

[Petike]

Excellent, not trying to be pushy however when do you plan to start porting the TL.

It is not on hiatus, I'm working on it whenever I have free time (to the detriment of my other TLs, but such is life). And it's been growing in the past few months. The trick is that I'm building the historical backstory in a more retroactive manner and I have to strive to keep it consistent.

BTW is there anyway I can help you?

If I'll need help, I'll ask.

Speaking of which: I figure the Luxembourg Air Force is going to be quite helicopter-heavy. A few posters have already mentioned choices like Bo 105s and Alouette IIIs, but I'd like to hear your idea of a full roster of helos. Preferably, one that goes all the way from the 60s to the present.

 

[Pangur]

I will have a think about the choppers and post my thoughts in the next day or so

 

[Petike]

I will have a think about the choppers and post my thoughts in the next day or so

Fair enough. Given the small size of Luxembourg and its armed forces, there probably won't be much of a need for heavier helicopters (something like the Eurocopter Cougar or smaller). Maybe one or two for troop transport and some public-oriented SAR. But I'm mostly expecting smaller helicopters, whether armed or not.

 

[Pangur]

Here is my list

Pre 1960

Bell-47


Reckoned to start by keeping it simple and cheap



1960 – 1969

Aérospatiale Alouette III
Sikorsky H-19


The H-19 is the first move into large choppers. I was thinking tops four in total



1970 – 1980

Aérospatiale Alouette III
Sikorsky H-19 / Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma (Puma came into service in 1985)



1981-1990

Aérospatiale Alouette III
Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma
MBB Bo 105


Heated up cold war forces the purchase of the Bo 155 .Both the Bo105 and Alouette III can be configured as gun ships with either/and machine guns and anti-tank missiles


1991-2000

Eurocopter AS532 Cougar
Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin




2001-2010

Eurocopter AS532 Cougar
Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin

same air frames with upgrades to engines and instruments

 

[Petike]

Not bad. Some minor quibbles :

While the Dauphin is a very good aircraft, isn't it more of a naval helicopter ?

How about some British heavier helicopters in the 50s and 60s, e.g. a Westland-built one instead of an American Sikorsky ?


Also, on a wholly speculative note... Since Luxembourg has no fighters or helis with guided missiles, could they have a use for a very small number of proper gunships later on ? Would 2-3 Mangustas in service be too overkill for little old Luxembourg ?

 

[Peace_Monger]

I think overall the helicopter kit your coming out with is proper, for the post prior to mine an CAS/ anti-armour asset such as the Mangusta is properly overkill but we can always hope . If anything your better off with up-gunning a Gazelle with TOW or similar anti-tank weaponry.

Overall I think Luxembourg air assets are going to primarily political in nature, that is in the sense that if they do purchase a given helicopter they're manufacture will be European and overwhelming a local and close ally; namely France, Germany, or Belgium. In this the Luxembourg air elements which will always be small can be tied directly into the forward and depot level supply chain there by reducing overhead costs. I cant see this happening if Luxembourg purchases American designs, or even British designs. Furthermore as Luxembourg already integrates their army into Belgium Army during a wartime setting, it only makes sense that they purchase helicopter similar to their neighbors. This allows likely seamless integration due to NATO doctrine and training they're by allowing Luxembourg to punch above their weight and contribute in a meaningfully way.

Thats my two cents anyway, but I could just be blowing smoke out of my ass in all honesty.

 

[Petike]

I think overall the helicopter kit your coming out with is proper, for the post prior to mine an CAS/ anti-armour asset such as the Mangusta is properly overkill but we can always hope . If anything your better off with up-gunning a Gazelle with TOW or similar anti-tank weaponry.

Dammit, of course ! A Gazelle would be cool ! OK, in that case, I think we can scrap the Mangusta.

Overall I think Luxembourg air assets are going to primarily political in nature, that is in the sense that if they do purchase a given helicopter they're manufacture will be European and overwhelming a local and close ally; namely France, Germany, or Belgium. In this the Luxembourg air elements which will always be small can be tied directly into the forward and depot level supply chain there by reducing overhead costs. I cant see this happening if Luxembourg purchases American designs, or even British designs.

Of course. This is part of my reasoning against buying overly foreign designs (e.g. American, South African ones, and whatnot) for the countries featured in my TL. Keep it local, keep it affordable, and you'll keep it plausible. That's my basic idea. I asked about the Mangusta because I can't imagine the Dauphin used as a combat helicopter. Bear in mind that I'd like to allocate most of the burden of combat-readiness to helicopters, since most fixed-wing planes of the grand duchy aren't too formiddable to begin with (and you can only do so much with a small batch of Hawks - sometimes, you need something slower and more manoueverable for CAS, ergo helicopters). Now, with Gazelles, there is a lot more potential for them to serve as multifunctional army choppers - both as utility vehicles and combat vehicles.

Furthermore as Luxembourg already integrates their army into Belgium Army during a wartime setting, it only makes sense that they purchase helicopter similar to their neighbors. This allows likely seamless integration due to NATO doctrine and training they're by allowing Luxembourg to punch above their weight and contribute in a meaningfully way.

Yep, good point. If you like, you can take a peek at the TL's wiki page. You'll notice most of the equipment I assigned to Liechtenstein comes from Swiss and Austrian sources and the one I assigned to Andorra is primarily of French, Belgian, Spanish and Portuguese origin. It felt reasonable to me, given the small size of the militaries and the fact that their home countries aren't exactly economic powerhouses (despite being fairly wealthy and well-off for their size, of course).

Thats my two cents anyway, but I could just be blowing smoke out of my ass in all honesty.

Don't worry, it's a good two cents. No smoke and folly.

 

[Michel Van]

What Lëtzebuerger Loftwaff need is a little tough Fighter/Bomber

the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk would be perfect for Luxembourg.
Small easy to handle multi use Aircraft : Fighter, Bomber, Tanker or reconnaissance plane.
the A-4 Skyhawk was in service from 47 years in USA

But sadly we not live in a perfect world.
Luxembourg would join venture with Belgium or others countries on Production of Fighters.
Here Lockheed and Dassault would make allot political pressure and bribery.
See how Belgium got there Augusta Helicopters and the deal for there Mirage fighters was also fishy

Lockheed F-104G was build in Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Italy.
A high flight performance Fighter, in role of a low-level flight Fighter/Bomber. With deadly consequences for it's Pilots.
the Company made allot of bribery to get the contract in Italy, Netherlands. (also suspected in Germany, but never proven)

Dassault Mirage 5 was build in Belgium
a Modified Mirage III fighter, for role of fighter-bomber and reconnaissance

Ironically the Belgian Air Force wanted the A-4 Skyhawk. They got high performance fighter, more unsuitable for his new role

 

[Petike]

Well, I did say I like light fighters. I have already given Iceland some upgraded F-5s and I had been toying with the idea of giving Luxembourg some F-4s. But, in the end, I decided that the other, British Hawk, will be generally more suitable.

The Lockheed Starfighter is the stuff of legends, and rightly so. In the negative sence.

Luxembourg Mirages would be interesting, but like the Mangusta, I think they would be overkill - even if they were lend-leased by the Belgians or the French. I'd simply like to stick to light fighters or jet trainers.

Speaking of fighters and trainers... What turboprop mean machines should we give to the Grand Ducal Air Force ? In OTL, the Luxembourg armed forces actually operated a few turboprops between 1952 and 1968. According to this, all three of them were Piper L-18C Super Cubs. I think I can safely put them in the canon of the TL, as far as the 50s-70s period is concerned (Belgium was also using them back then). What interests me now is what turboprops replace them once they've run their course and become obsolete.

 

[Peace_Monger]

If your looking for a light fighter of sorts to help your BAE Hawks, I think the Short Tucano or perhaps the Embraer Super Tucano (later on of course) could fit a nice niche role in addition to the your BAE Hawk idea. During the Cold War Short Tucano could fulfill basic training, but during an actual conflict (but also in peacetime) they could be used in a pinch as forward artillery observer (FAO)/ forward air controller (FAC) aircraft or even necessary as light attack asset that could fly low and slow.

After the Cold War rounds off, the Super Tucano could be purchased for basic training again but also as a target towing aircraft or for radar spoffers in addition to mentioned roles supporting regional or NATO allies. The premise the government or military could use is for the purchase is that their going to reduce flight hours of the BAE Hawk to keep the air frame viable for future use (post 2010 or something).

Then when the numerous conflicts in Africa, and Middle East start to occur post 1990, Luxembourg Air Force will be very (and I mean very) high demand to train the FAO or FAC, in all likelihood NATO or the UN could request Luxembourg send over its Super Tucanos to support its ongoing operation(s). It might even be possible that NATO might request set up a joint-training school in Luxembourg for FAO or FAC training (similar to whats goes on at CFB Goose Bay), maybe in partnership with Germany to use their larger air to ground ranges when necessary. This school would likely insure the Luxembourg Air Force for the foreseeable future.

Btw glad I could help with the Gazelle thing, I only thought of it because the Serbs did just that during the Yugoslavia Wars started bolting everything they could onto those little things.

 

[Petike]

Short Tucano or perhaps the Embraer Super Tucano

Yeah, could be. See, the competition - trainers made by Pilatus - are already serving in two countries of the TL (PC-7s in Iceland and armable PC-9s in Andorra). So I've figured that mixing it up a bit and adding a non-European or partially-European turboprop trainer model could help prevent the LuAF OOB from being too similar to the other countries.

As far as I'm concerned, it could go like this :

50s-60s - the aforementioned Super Cubs fill in most of the training and spotter roles
70s-80s - the Super Cubs are gradually sold off and replaced with SF.260s (with these, the LuAF gains the opportunity to use trainers for some basic combat practice as well)
90s-present - SF.260s gradually replaced with Tucanos license-built by Short in the UK (and those too could be replaced later on - in the 2010s or so - by the newer Super Tucanos, manufactured directly by EMBRAER)

Of course, besides these, there will probably be a few other light spotter/training models in the OOB, in small numbers.

After the Cold War rounds off, the Super Tucano could be purchased for basic training again but also as a target towing aircraft or for radar spoffers in addition to mentioned roles supporting regional or NATO allies. The premise the government or military could use is for the purchase is that their going to reduce flight hours of the BAE Hawk to keep the air frame viable for future use (post 2010 or something).

A good assessment. One I generally agree with.

Then when the numerous conflicts in Africa, and Middle East start to occur post 1990, Luxembourg Air Force will be very (and I mean very) high demand to train the FAO or FAC, in all likelihood NATO or the UN could request Luxembourg send over its Super Tucanos to support its ongoing operation(s). It might even be possible that NATO might request set up a joint-training school in Luxembourg for FAO or FAC training (similar to whats goes on at CFB Goose Bay), maybe in partnership with Germany to use their larger air to ground ranges when necessary. This school would likely insure the Luxembourg Air Force for the foreseeable future.

Bit of a stretch, but why not. I already have some notes on Liechtenstein helping out with one of their helicopters on a certain peacekeeping mission of the TL. So, yes, the far larger Luxembourg could definitely pull off similar daring-do.

Btw glad I could help with the Gazelle thing, I only thought of it because the Serbs did just that during the Yugoslavia Wars started bolting everything they could onto those little things.

Well, the UDI Rhodesian armies also kept arming their barely military grade Alouettes with all kinds of crazy weaponry. Sometimes, improvisation will get you far. Heck, the Croatian Air Force was forced to use An-2s as impromptu bombers and electronic warfare aircraft during the early stages of the Serbian-Croatian war (before they bought MiG 21s). Despite some losses, the An-2s did the job !

 

[Michel Van]

Well, I did say I like light fighters. I have already given Iceland some upgraded F-5s and I had been toying with the idea of giving Luxembourg some F-4s. But, in the end, I decided that the other, British Hawk, will be generally more suitable.

oh i forgot the Northrop F-5 it's a good fighter !

The Lockheed Starfighter is the stuff of legends, and rightly so. In the negative sence.

In Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Italy they gave them the nickname: "The Widowmaker" or "Coffin Nail"

Luxembourg Mirages would be interesting, but like the Mangusta, I think they would be overkill - even if they were lend-leased by the Belgians or the French.

That happens if Politics and bribery find perfect conditions...

I'd simply like to stick to light fighters or jet trainers.
Speaking of fighters and trainers... What turboprop mean machines should we give to the Grand Ducal Air Force ? In OTL, the Luxembourg armed forces actually operated a few turboprops between 1952 and 1968... Piper L-18C Super Cubs. I think I can safely put them in the canon of the TL, as far as the 50s-70s period is concerned (Belgium was also using them back then). What interests me now is what turboprops replace them once they've run their course and become obsolete.

What about Embraer EMB 312 Tucano ?
but there also Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet trainer/fighter, who was very popular in 1970s

on Turboprop transport aircraft.

Aeritalia G.222 with STOL
or
Transall C-160

and there this interesting turboprop aircraft
the FMA IA 58 Pucará a ground-attack and counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft.

 

[Petike]

Sorry, Michel, I didn't notice your last post. Some answers to your questions :

What about Embraer EMB 312 Tucano ?

After giving it some thought, I've decided. They will have both classic Tucanos and later, in this decade, the new Super Tucanos as replacements. Prior to Tucanos, they'll use Piper Super Cubs and Aermacchi SF.260s.

but there also Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet trainer/fighter, who was very popular in 1970s

I could see it as a transitional jet trainer before they switch over to the Hawks during the 1980s. While I like the Alpha Jet, I think the Hawk would be a better long-term choice for air policing (the Alpha Jet or something like the Aero Albatros would be a bit weak for that role).

Aeritalia G.222 with STOL
or
Transall C-160

I still have to think these over. The Transall is a pretty narrow choice - an "exclusive" reserved for only a few countries, so to speak. I'd go with the Spartan, since it is also STOL capable. BTW, did you know that OTL Luxembourg plans to buy a big-ass Airbus A400M heavy transport by 2019 ? It will be its first army plane since the 1960s. Man, what a wacky world we live in...

and there this interesting turboprop aircraft the FMA IA 58 Pucará a ground-attack and counter-insurgency (COIN) aircraft.

Unfortunately, the Pucará (which I like, BTW) was outdated by the 1990s and Argentina was mostly regarded as a pariah state until the early 1980s. I can't see Luxembourg buying anything from the Argentina of old, except for maybe some quality beef. And buying combat planes from the more modern and more open Argentina of today ? Oops, FMA doesn't produce much of those anymore !

 

[Pangur]

A Airbus’ A400M ? Thats just unreal! I don't that it can even get to its operational flight level with out going outside Luxenbourg airspace

 

[Petike]

A Airbus’ A400M ? Thats just unreal! I don't that it can even get to its operational flight level with out going outside Luxenbourg airspace

You tell 'em, Pangur. From what little concrete sources I was able to gather, they plan to own and use the A400M in cooperation with Belgium - kind of like how they own and operate NATO AWACS planes from Germany. So, it is quite possible that the A400M won't have Luxembourg as its primary homestead, despite official Luxembourgish ownership.