Challenge: Lëtzebuerger Loftwaff (Luxembourg Air Force)
- Thread starter Petike
- Start date
Hawk 60 I suppose, with recce pod or gun pod and sidewinders on the wings.
The Hawk would be a good choice to replace an older jet like the vampire in the early to mid 1980s.
I would suggest (in common with others)
post war:-surplus P51s or spitfires or Swiss Moranes even or maybe even Bf109s using Spanish spare parts just to be exotic.
mid 1950s:-refurbished Vampires or similar light, semi obsolete fighter bomber.
early 1970s:- a newish attack trainer like the SAAB 105 perhaps or refurbished Magisters.
sometime in the 1980s:- Hawk 2 seat fighter bomber/trainer.
The Hawk would be a good choice to replace an older jet like the vampire in the early to mid 1980s.
I would suggest (in common with others)
post war:-surplus P51s or spitfires or Swiss Moranes even or maybe even Bf109s using Spanish spare parts just to be exotic.
mid 1950s:-refurbished Vampires or similar light, semi obsolete fighter bomber.
early 1970s:- a newish attack trainer like the SAAB 105 perhaps or refurbished Magisters.
sometime in the 1980s:- Hawk 2 seat fighter bomber/trainer.
Nice. Thanks for all the info and suggestions. 
I guess the Vampire or some other small British or French jet would be the most natural choice. I was once toying with the idea of a tiny squadron of Canadian-built Sabres flying for the LuAF until the mid-60s, but frankly, I've lately decided to discard the idea. It would be much easier (and more logical) if they bought only European-built planes. I have yet to finish a full historical roster of military equipment and vehicles for any of the countries in the TL, so I'm leaving this open for now. Currently, I'm still trying to focus on finishing the current roster of tech used by the armed forces of each country.
Outside of Luxembourg, only one other small country in my TL will have military jets. The LuAF itself will always operate only one jet type at any given time, all of them armed jet trainers at best. While some old jet fighters from the 50s and 60s might serve in the LuAF after WWII, once a newer generation of jet fighters becomes ubiquotous, Luxembourg will just not be able to afford them. Nor will it need them (since, unlike that other small country, it will only need to air police a relatively small area).
So yeah, from the late 60s onward (at the latest), the only jets in the force will be buffer trainers (which is honestly enough for close air support and some basic anti-air capability of the country).
I guess the Vampire or some other small British or French jet would be the most natural choice. I was once toying with the idea of a tiny squadron of Canadian-built Sabres flying for the LuAF until the mid-60s, but frankly, I've lately decided to discard the idea. It would be much easier (and more logical) if they bought only European-built planes. I have yet to finish a full historical roster of military equipment and vehicles for any of the countries in the TL, so I'm leaving this open for now. Currently, I'm still trying to focus on finishing the current roster of tech used by the armed forces of each country.Outside of Luxembourg, only one other small country in my TL will have military jets. The LuAF itself will always operate only one jet type at any given time, all of them armed jet trainers at best. While some old jet fighters from the 50s and 60s might serve in the LuAF after WWII, once a newer generation of jet fighters becomes ubiquotous, Luxembourg will just not be able to afford them. Nor will it need them (since, unlike that other small country, it will only need to air police a relatively small area).
So yeah, from the late 60s onward (at the latest), the only jets in the force will be buffer trainers (which is honestly enough for close air support and some basic anti-air capability of the country).
I've been doing some reading about the various specific sub-versions of the Mk 60 Hawk. It seems I'll have to add one more number for the Luxembourg export version. Probably "68". Though it is possible that the Loftwaff will purchase it prior to Saudi Arabia, Switzerland or South Korea - i.e., versions 65/65A, 66 and 67. This would reshuffle the version numbers compared to OTL. It would be a nice added detail to the ATLness of the timeline.
Probably "68". Though it is possible that the Loftwaff will purchase it prior to Saudi Arabia, Switzerland or South Korea - i.e., versions 65/65A, 66 and 67. This would reshuffle the version numbers compared to OTL. It would be a nice added detail to the ATLness of the timeline.
Last edited:
Of course another possibility is that a Luxembourgious air force might lease a small number of fighters from a neighbouring NATO country as part of the collective defence plans. In that case something more modern might be on the cards, although probably not cutting edge.
It gives Lux access to whatever Belgium is flying at the time which means a succession of F86, F104 and F16. Perhaps only half a squadron and with training done in Belgium.
I quite like the idea of a similar small air force for Malta. Especially after it's WW2 bombing experiences. Probably ex RAF equipment.
The Malta fighter squadron. Later in WW2 a locally recruited cadre of pilots are equipped with Spitfires to form part of Malta's air defences, operating alongside the regular RAF. Post war they continue flying with around 8 late marque spitfires until the 1950s when they reequip with vampires and later venoms. In the later 1960s they trade up to Hunters which they retain for many years until replacing them Hawks in the 1980s.
I think a fighter squadron for a small nation could be a source of national pride and given it's history a people like the Maltese might take comfort from having some level of self sufficiency in their air defence and the ability to participate in policing their air space.
It gives Lux access to whatever Belgium is flying at the time which means a succession of F86, F104 and F16. Perhaps only half a squadron and with training done in Belgium.
I quite like the idea of a similar small air force for Malta. Especially after it's WW2 bombing experiences. Probably ex RAF equipment.
The Malta fighter squadron. Later in WW2 a locally recruited cadre of pilots are equipped with Spitfires to form part of Malta's air defences, operating alongside the regular RAF. Post war they continue flying with around 8 late marque spitfires until the 1950s when they reequip with vampires and later venoms. In the later 1960s they trade up to Hunters which they retain for many years until replacing them Hawks in the 1980s.
I think a fighter squadron for a small nation could be a source of national pride and given it's history a people like the Maltese might take comfort from having some level of self sufficiency in their air defence and the ability to participate in policing their air space.
Pangur
Donor
I've been doing some reading about the various specific subversions of the Mk 60 Hawk. It seems I'll have to add one more number for the Luxembourg export version.
What have you got in mind for the V68 that would make it different from the previous versions?
Delta Force
Banned
Postwar aircraft would likely be high performance propeller aircraft at first (P-51s), transitioning to jet aircraft in the 1950s (CF-101 would be a good choice given the self-defense role). In the 1960s they move on to supersonic aircraft, perhaps purchasing the Avro Arrow (if it enters production) or F-102, the F-5 is another option for a larger air force although it is not designed for aerial interception. In the 1990s with the end of the Cold War Luxembourg decides to purchase the MiG-29 or Su-27, as the aircraft offer performance comparable to the best NATO bloc aircraft for much lower cost. The MiG-29 and Su-27 also have superior maneuverability and rough field performance compared to NATO aircraft, useful for a nation with tight airspace and that doesn't want to be vulnerable to a knockout blow on its limited airport infrastructure.
Now I'm starting to regret that I didn't incorporate Malta into the project.
But maybe I'll reconsider it one day.
Take a look at the OTL list. The Mk 50 and Mk 60 Hawks had version numbers specified according to the country they were exported to, even if they shared the same basic loadouts and characteristics. E.g. Finland received the 51, Switzerland the 66, etc. In truth, those were less version numbers than batches/production series numbers.
I am sorry, but that is terribly overblown for little old Luxembourg. A supersonic jet would leave the country within a minute and have a constant problem of flying out of the country's air space. That's why I decided for something subsonic and cheaper. Same with Iceland, which will... *dun, dun, dun* ...fly modernized F-5 Tigers (since, out of all the small countries the TL focuses on, Iceland will have the biggest air space area to police).
I'm pretty much decided now. Luxembourg will only field the Hawk trainers in lieu of fighters. There's a whole host of economic and tactical reasons for why I consider them more useful to the country than dedicated fightercraft. Also, a few helos will supplement the combat capabilities of the air force. And there will be several useful turboprops for various utility or support tasks.
Last edited:
They will have a few UAVs, but no UCAVs. I am not looking into the future, but at the present. And only the US currently has any real UCAVs. All other drones are just recon vehicles. I could see Luxembourg and Iceland using Elbit Skylarks. Not sure about the other countries in the TL.
Delta Force
Banned
Luxembourg is actually 3.5 times the size of Singapore, which has a squadron of F-15Es and several F-16 squadrons (also 1.5 F-5 squadrons). While any aircraft will have a hard time staying in Luxembourgian territory and it may be neutral, the primary threat to the country will come from the Soviets and I imagine there would be a contingency to join NATO in the event of war. In any case, the French and West Germans probably won't mind Luxembourgian aircraft crossing their airspace to attack Soviet aircraft, especially since they would likely be one of the last lines of conventional deterrent before France would start using tactical nuclear weapons to keep the Soviets out.
If you have a greater Luxembourg encompassing say the Belgian Luxemburg plus maybe a few extras tacked on then with a population approaching say 1.2m then why not have a single small wing of fighters? So 1947 we see them with some second hand Spitfires in the wing, plus a squadron of Magisters, one of Rapides, Ansons and Dakotas, maybe a flight of Austers for the brigade plus of the Luxembourg army.
(That by the way being 6 infantry battalions with national service plus AA, field artillery, engineer, signals, transport, etc regiments, maybe even a tank regiment operating Centurions from the late 50s through to the 70s, I'd also add a distinct and separate paramilitary ducal Guard as there was actually some form of this OTL)
In the 1950s the fighter wing starts to get Vampires then Venoms with the vampires given to the training sqdn. Later on Hunters pop up, Venoms gone, maybe some Jet Provosts are obtained. Perhaps we get the first few helicopters too. By 1970s Luxembourg is in the NATO common fighter programme and therefore gets the F16 to the tune of 20 F16A and 4 B. these are accompanied by a dozen Alpha Jets used for training and light strike. Other elements are a half dozen light helicopters (if bought pre 1970 then its Allouette 3 otherwise could be BO105?) transport force rather different with a couple Andovers, couple C130 or Transalls, couple exec jets for the Duke and Govt.
Army equipment in 1980s through to the end of the Cold War pretty much same as Belguim.
By today the army is reduced in scale to 1 field battle group plus one ranger/tier 2 SF company plus training assets and logistics group. The Ducal Guard is 'just as it always was' that is a semi military semi police quasi commandoised gendarmerie a reinforced battalion equivalent with around 7 companies (usual HQ unit and training unit) rest being a general duties company used for patrolling public events and the airports, 1 special duties company (think anti terrorist plus other tasks), public duties company with the band for all the touristy requirements and 1 specialist company with the police mounted unit, canine unit and so on.
The Air Force is down to a single support squadron with helicopters and exec aircraft, also personnel flying in NATO joint units, all training done in Canada. The F16s were sold off to Turkey with the end of the Cold War.
That I think would be a fairly realistic picture for a bigger Luxembourg.
(That by the way being 6 infantry battalions with national service plus AA, field artillery, engineer, signals, transport, etc regiments, maybe even a tank regiment operating Centurions from the late 50s through to the 70s, I'd also add a distinct and separate paramilitary ducal Guard as there was actually some form of this OTL)
In the 1950s the fighter wing starts to get Vampires then Venoms with the vampires given to the training sqdn. Later on Hunters pop up, Venoms gone, maybe some Jet Provosts are obtained. Perhaps we get the first few helicopters too. By 1970s Luxembourg is in the NATO common fighter programme and therefore gets the F16 to the tune of 20 F16A and 4 B. these are accompanied by a dozen Alpha Jets used for training and light strike. Other elements are a half dozen light helicopters (if bought pre 1970 then its Allouette 3 otherwise could be BO105?) transport force rather different with a couple Andovers, couple C130 or Transalls, couple exec jets for the Duke and Govt.
Army equipment in 1980s through to the end of the Cold War pretty much same as Belguim.
By today the army is reduced in scale to 1 field battle group plus one ranger/tier 2 SF company plus training assets and logistics group. The Ducal Guard is 'just as it always was' that is a semi military semi police quasi commandoised gendarmerie a reinforced battalion equivalent with around 7 companies (usual HQ unit and training unit) rest being a general duties company used for patrolling public events and the airports, 1 special duties company (think anti terrorist plus other tasks), public duties company with the band for all the touristy requirements and 1 specialist company with the police mounted unit, canine unit and so on.
The Air Force is down to a single support squadron with helicopters and exec aircraft, also personnel flying in NATO joint units, all training done in Canada. The F16s were sold off to Turkey with the end of the Cold War.
That I think would be a fairly realistic picture for a bigger Luxembourg.
Pangur
Donor
However Luxembourg is land locked. Unless they have agreement to over fly Germany and France all the time the aircraft you suggest are useless. They are also very expensive
Delta Force
Banned
They are probably going to need to train somewhere else anyways, Luxembourg is too small to do any realistic training over its own airspace.
Pangur
Donor
Which is part of where I was going with my previous question re what counties are in this TL. My suggest goes like this;
- If they all work together then that surely would reduce costs of procurement
- If Iceland is in the mix then they could use there for training as they equally if say San Marino was in the mix they have the Med to practice over. To really push the envelope add Ireland and they have a large enough a landmass to exercise over
NO. One of the points of this TL is that none of the nations it focuses on can use anything bigger than an F-5 or F-4. So no big ass fighter or ground attack planes. I'm sorry.
They can train in Iceland, it has the biggest airspace of the alliance nations.
Alternatively, they can also train in any neighbouring allied country (since the alliance doesn't exist in a bubble and it does cooperate with NATO in the same way most neutral European nations do).The alliance's name is the League of Small European Republics and States (LOSERS).
They are all in a defensive and diplomatic alliance of their own, one which has different tiers of membership (some countries don't have enlarged armed forces compared to OTL and rely on the help of the better-equipped countries of the alliance for any potential military help). The costs for procurement are already reduced, since the countries do work together in this field.
First tier - Iceland, Luxembourg
Second tier - Andorra, Liechtenstein (with the probable future addition of Malta)
Third tier - Monaco, San Marino, The Vatican (though lately, I'm thinking about dropping the Vatican and making it an associated member only)
The tiers don't denote hierarchy and political rights, but overall defensive capability of the country within the alliance.
That's all very nice and exhaustive, but the TL's Luxembourg stays within its OTL borders. The point of the TL is not to wank Luxembourg.
However, I'm sure your post will still come in handy for people who'd want to wank Luxembourg and give it a really big air force. (This thread is among those archived on the Luxembourg POD page, so someone else than me can also see the tips given in it so far.)
Last edited:
Pangur
Donor
Are you kicking this one back off?
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/do...gue_of_small_european_republics_and_states_tl
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/do...gue_of_small_european_republics_and_states_tl
Back off ?
That's the TL's page ! But it isn't publicly accessible yet on the wiki, given that the TL is yet to start properly. I'm using it purely as a work page for now. I'm currently developing the TL's background, so it will still take some time until I write the story down in textbook-style format. The OOB choices on that page are mostly WIPs, so don't take them all at face value.