Challenge: India On The Moon!

With a POD of anytime between 1947 and 2011, your job is to get at least two Indian astronauts on the Moon through purely India's efforts. Bonus points if India gets there first. Extra bonus points if India builds a moon base and goes to Mars. (Yeah, I know that this is going to be really hard, but it's also fun and interesting. Also, Bollywood movies...IN SPACE! :p )

Indian_Moon_Landing_by_CascadianPatriot.jpg
 
Nuclear war in the late 50s, leaving India the major power. They then decide as an effort to make people less depressed about the whole nuclear apocolypse thing they'll land on the moon?
 
The interest was never there even for a space program until Rajiv Gandhi became PM in 1984 IOTL, and none of Nehru's possible successors in the '50s or '60s were interested in such extravagant ventures. You need tech infrastructure. pro-industry economic policies, and an educational base of scientists and engineers which did not exist and required many years to develop. While Desai had the policy orientation he did not have the tech interest. I'm calling implausible.
 
India follows the economic policies it enacted in the 90s from the beginning of independence, while China stays Maoist. India becomes the workshop of the world, and rapidly develops. Large investment in education and technology occurs. The Space Race goes as OTL, with most of the major stuff petering off by the 1970s. India, by the 1980s, is one of the largest economic and military powers in the world, and wants make its mark as a new superpower. It decides to launch a space program and show it is not an undeveloped country, as the other two superpowers have been so fond of treating it as. It begins a serious space program in the mid-1970s, and launches three two-man missions to the Moon in the early 1980s, and follows up on this and founds a semi-permanent Moon base for six astronauts by the late 1980s.
 
The interest was never there even for a space program until Rajiv Gandhi became PM in 1984 IOTL, and none of Nehru's possible successors in the '50s or '60s were interested in such extravagant ventures. You need tech infrastructure and pro-industry economic policies, and while Desai had the policy orientation he did not have the tech interest.

How about this:

For some reason, Patel pushes Nehru toward allowing more private industry. After Nehru's death, Desai (who lives longer) moves toward an even more pro-free market policy. The U.S manages to launch Alan Shepard into space first; U.S-USSR Space Race ends in orbit. Indira Gandhi dies in an accident before she can become Prime Minister. INC gets defeated in elections in the 70s. Meanwhile, ISRO is very successful with its Earth Remote Sensing satellites to help India develop its agricultural sector and resources. Rajiv Gandhi goes into politics for some reason and gets elected PM in 1984. Clementine is launched earlier and detects water ice on the Moon. Rajiv is convinced by some Indian aerospace engineer to slowly try for the Moon to exploit resources there, as well as on Near Earth Asteroids and to develop space-based manufacturing and solar power. First Indian manned orbital mission in 1990, an Indian space station by 2000, and and Indian lunar landing in 2011. How does that sound?

Also, that space tech might India develop in this TL? Does India go Apollo EOR-style along with a Big Dumb Booster to build lunar and asteroid bases, or builds a shuttle that launches on top of a heavy-lift rocket instead?
 
The problem is that Morarji Desai is the only potential PM candidate until 1984 who is an economic liberal, and that was one of the prime reasons why the Congress Syndicate (machinist bosses) blocked his candidacy three consecutive times. Nehru himself would block any attempt by Desai to build up a political power base strong enough to win- he didn't like Desai either. Among other things he was eccentric (drinking his own urine for "health" reasons), arrogant and very chauvinistic in his treatment of Indira Gandhi- treating his PM like a 5 year old girl (he actually called her that in public) who needs protecting, and ideology and machinist scheming aside, no one votes for a leadership candidate who acts like an asshole to their colleagues. Just ask Heath in 1975 or Thatcher in 1990.

Also: you mean from the '80s. There wouldn't have been Phase II without Phase I.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Have a real space race develop between China and India. I really don't think there is the initiative to fly off to a massive money pit in the sky, if not for tension and a desire to "get there first".

No one can deny that another space race between China and India wouldn't be frigen awesome.
 
The problem is that Morarji Desai is the only potential PM candidate until 1984 who is an economic liberal, and that was one of the prime reasons why the Congress Syndicate (machinist bosses) blocked his candidacy three consecutive times. Nehru himself would block any attempt by Desai to build up a political power base strong enough to win- he didn't like Desai either. Among other things he was eccentric (drinking his own urine for "health" reasons), arrogant and very chauvinistic in his treatment of Indira Gandhi- treating his PM like a 5 year old girl (he actually called her that in public) who needs protecting, and ideology and machinist scheming aside, no one votes for a leadership candidate who acts like an asshole to their colleagues. Just ask Heath in 1975 or Thatcher in 1990.

Also: you mean from the '80s. There wouldn't have been Phase II without Phase I.

Perhaps Congress splits, and voters are impressed enough with Desai's economic policies (basically, social liberalism with help for poor people) that they elected him and his party?

And what do you mean by "from the '80s"? Rajiv Gandhi as PM or something else?
 
Nehru was an ideologically committed Fabian socialist and any private industry would be subjected to the Raj, and the restrictions were so severe they would've been better off nationalized in efficiency terms. Private industry cannot create a modern economy with the Raj, which was more a trust-preservation measure than a monopoly. All the heavy industries for raw materials were nationalized, with all the inefficiency that implies. I don't know about Patel's economic views, but regardless you cannot have Nehru as PM if you want this to happen. You would need an ASB to change his entire ideological makeup.
 
Nehru was an ideologically committed Fabian socialist and any private industry would be subjected to the Raj, and the restrictions were so severe they would've been better off nationalized in efficiency terms. Private industry cannot create a modern economy with the Raj, which was more a trust-preservation measure than a monopoly. All the heavy industries for raw materials were nationalized, with all the inefficiency that implies. I don't know about Patel's economic views, but regardless you cannot have Nehru as PM if you want this to happen. You would need an ASB to change his entire ideological makeup.

So, Patel as PM and Nehru as External Affairs Minister (we probably need Nehru to keep Patel from pushing to the right socially)...

Yeah, Patel was more accepting of the free-market then Nehru in the economy (I'm not sure by how much, through)...
 
I do not know anythiong about Indian politics. Free market systems, however, are not needed to put men in space. aybe the Indian effot coud start with....

1950s Like the United States, India become obsessed with the military potential of rockets and missiles. German rocket designers are imported (Germany is devestated and the Indians are paying top rupee to people with select skills)

1970s: India uses its non aligned status and hints of moving closer into the Soviet orbit to win invitations to participate in the Soviet space program.

1990s: Indian space interests continue, Indians buy the Soviet space shuttle Buran (ideally moe than one working example is needed) from the cash starved Russians. They also buy the technology behind Russian work horse rockets. Buran is improved and Indians assemble a skylab style space station in orbit.

2000s: Indians decide that Apollo to moon approach is wrong. Instead, they want to assemble rockets in orbit, stage supplies and return fuel around moon.

2011: Indians leave for the moon from Indian sky lab. They link up with staged supplies and return fuel. After landing on moon and more link ups with more fuel, they return to sky lab and then to earth.
 
I do not know anythiong about Indian politics. Free market systems, however, are not needed to put men in space. aybe the Indian effot coud start with....

1950s Like the United States, India become obsessed with the military potential of rockets and missiles. German rocket designers are imported (Germany is devestated and the Indians are paying top rupee to people with select skills)

1970s: India uses its non aligned status and hints of moving closer into the Soviet orbit to win invitations to participate in the Soviet space program.

1990s: Indian space interests continue, Indians buy the Soviet space shuttle Buran (ideally moe than one working example is needed) from the cash starved Russian. They also buy the technology behind Russian work horse rockets. Buran is improved and Indians assemble a skylab style space station in orbit.

2000s: Indians decide that Apollo to moon approach is wrong. Instead, they want to assemble a rockets in orbit, stage supplies and return rcickets around moon.

2011: Indians leave for the moon from Indian sky lab. They link up with staged supplies and return fuel. After landing on moon and more link ups with more fuel, they return to skyalab and earth.

But does India have enough cash to even think about start a small space program in the 50s? IOTL, India had foreign exchange problems until the 90s...
 
But does India have enough cash to even think about start a small space program in the 50s? IOTL, India had foreign exchange problems until the 90s...
I think they did, if they made it a national goal. In the 1950s, most of the space knowledge was in the minds of a few scientists. This knowledge was more important than esoteric technologies etc.

A basic level rocket program would not need alot of infrastructure, just a few precision machine shops paired with the German engineers. Some components would have to be imported, but I think most could be made locally with guidiance and a national effort. It might be good to import some skilled German machinists as well.
 
No, it doesn't. IOTL the rupee was floated de facto in 1986, de jure in the '90s. All the heavy industries: chemicals, steel, etc. were nationalized and neither the tech base, the educated scientists and engineers nor the educational system needed to create that base existed. Nor did politicians exist who could successfully enact those policies against the will of their party and the public. Sorry for being Don Downer here but there are many steps required that can't be fulfilled under those circumstances.
 
But does India have enough cash to even think about start a small space program in the 50s? IOTL, India had foreign exchange problems until the 90s...

This is what screws India over. Economically, it is simply not in a position to operate a strong space program. The USSR and USA, and to a lesser extent at the time the European nations, had massive aerospace industries, built on the foundations of their WWII war economies, which allowed a shifting of gears in the 1960s to a space programme.

India has no such thing. Before India has any chance to go to the Moon alone, they need to build an aerospace industry from scratch. So, somehow give India a reason to militarize, with lots of missiles.
 
No, it doesn't. IOTL the rupee was floated de facto in 1986, de jure in the '90s. All the heavy industries: chemicals, steel, etc. were nationalized and neither the tech base, the educated scientists and engineers nor the educational system needed to create that base existed. Nor did politicians exist who could successfully enact those policies against the will of their party and the public. Sorry for being Don Downer here but there are many steps required that can't be fulfilled under those circumstances.

That's way I had pro-free market PMs and the first lunar landing only in 2011... :p

This is what screws India over. Economically, it is simply not in a position to operate a strong space program. The USSR and USA, and to a lesser extent at the time the European nations, had massive aerospace industries, built on the foundations of their WWII war economies, which allowed a shifting of gears in the 1960s to a space programme.

India has no such thing. Before India has any chance to go to the Moon alone, they need to build an aerospace industry from scratch. So, somehow give India a reason to militarize, with lots of missiles.

Again, that's why I gave India pro-free market PMs and time to build up an aerospace industry...maybe Pakistan tries to get nuclear missiles earlier and China gives even more technical help to Pakistan?
 
India has no such thing. Before India has any chance to go to the Moon alone, they need to build an aerospace industry from scratch. So, somehow give India a reason to militarize, with lots of missiles.
For this scenario does India have to develop a space industry from scratch, or only go the moon via Indian effort?

My idea is that India learns the basics from Germans in the 1950s. Then India learns the advanced elements in increasing partnership with the Soviets in the 1970s. India then buys the support platforms from the Russians in the 1990s. Then India goes to the moon in 2011 using Indian effort and Indian technology.
 
For this scenario does India have to develop a space industry from scratch, or only go the moon via Indian effort?

My idea is that India learns the basics from Germans in the 1950s. Then India learns the advanced elements in increasing partnership with the Soviets in the 1970s. India then buys the support platforms from the Russians in the 1990s. Then India goes to the moon in 2011 using Indian effort and Indian technology.

You still need money to do the manned missions necessary before a manned lunar landing...
 
You still need money to do the manned missions necessary before a manned lunar landing...
Lets say that all India manned flight does not begin until 1993 using equipment purchased from the Russias at deep discount prices. Could the Indian economy support manned flights on purchased equipment starting in 1993?
 
Lets say that all India manned flight does not begin until 1993 using equipment purchased from the Russias at deep discount prices. Could the Indian economy support manned flights on purchased equipment starting in 1993?

If India goes the free-market route and grows faster and earlier, then yes. But India going free market won't sit well with the Soviets until the late 80s...
 
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