Challenge: Hindu Japan

[Hendryk]

My Ah.com clichéometer is already attempting to find ways to involve the early discovery of America and airships into it.

I don't know about America, but with extra maritime traffic in south-east Asia, one could imagine some ship spotting Australia at one point or other. Actual colonization would be quite unlikely, but the odd coastal outpost could be set up, causing a technological and cultural trickle-down effect among local Aboriginal populations.

 

[Flocculencio]

This would be very interesting. We might even have muslims dropping by in Japan.

If Islam arises ITTL

I suppose they wouldn´t conquer it, it´s quite a distance. But maybe they could conquer the Ryuku, or gain one city in Japan and then slowly affect the culture of Japan.

You're thinking of the wrong era. I'm thinking 2nd or 3rd C BC- at this point the Japanese islands are going through the Yayoi period.- they're basically populated by agricultural tribes.

 

[Hendryk]

Perhaps East Africa gets settled by Indians ITTL.

Hindu Madagascar? Hindu-influenced Monomotapa? Sounds good

 

[Fabilius]

I don't know about America, but with extra maritime traffic in south-east Asia, one could imagine some ship spotting Australia at one point or other. Actual colonization would be quite unlikely, but the odd coastal outpost could be set up, causing a technological and cultural trickle-down effect among local Aboriginal populations.

True. That´s always something. Of course colonizing Australia isn´t ASB in itself, just unlikely. Didn´t Zheng He establish a community in Malay just because he could?

I suppose one can never rule out the occasional curious king...

 

[Analytical Engine]

Hindu Madagascar? Hindu-influenced Monomotapa? Sounds good

I want to see a Hindu Zanzibar...

Maybe even a Hindu Arabia? (Or, at least parts of it - Yemen, Oman...)

 

[Fabilius]

If Islam arises ITTL



You're thinking of the wrong era. I'm thinking 2nd or 3rd C BC- at this point the Japanese islands are going through the Yayoi period.- they're basically populated by agricultural tribes.

A good point. At this stage they´d be easily taken over. Very nice.

 

[Flocculencio]

A good point. At this stage they´d be easily taken over. Very nice.

Thank you- I also hope it raises awareness that Japan's mythical history needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. For some reason people seem more willing to take mythical background as historical fact in the case of Japan.

 

[Haggis]

The Japanese were just getting some bits of Buddhism at this time, right?

I'm sure that they'd love Mahakali in all her glory and probably adopt her in a second.

So 2nd-3rd century BC, are we talking the Chola or the Mauryans here? The Chola seem like they'd be more more expansionist, the Mauryans were already frreaking massive.

 

[Flocculencio]

The Japanese were just getting some bits of Buddhism at this time, right?

Not for a few hundred years more- Buddhism only appeared in Japan when it was introduced through ties with Korean states in the 3rd C AD. In the Yayoi period they were still shamanistc

So 2nd-3rd century BC, are we talking the Chola or the Mauryans here? The Chola seem like they'd be more more expansionist, the Mauryans were already frreaking massive.

The Chola will probably provide the initial impetus but the actual contact with Japan will probably be made by Indian and Indianised Malay merchants. First political contact will probably be with the Indianised kings who ITTL will rule states in the Philippines or Taiwan.

 

[Hendryk]

Having mentioned the Champa kingdom in the Rules/clichés of AH thread, I felt like bringing this thread back to people's attention. I believe there's potential in the idea of a Hindu Arc from the Indus to Honshu.

 

[Flocculencio]

Yes indeed. One assumes you're less likely to see a centralised Japan- whereas in OTL you had at least nominal central control in TTL the magnates are all going to have their own little kingdoms. This is because Indian political theory never really took up the idea of the centralised empire, as opposed to a hegemon with vassal states.

 

[DuQuense]

Nice idea, Hendryk. However, that would raise one more curiosity. Travel from Champa to Japan is certainly doable, but for what cause ? Why would the Indians/othere Hindus go to Japan ? Even though maybe that they didn't arrive in Japan on purpose () or didn't have any particular objective visiting there, why should they be brought by their journey there for whatever reason ? Maybe this won't be to hard, but I'm just curious..

The Indians won't do it. The Champas were traders, Once they convert to Hinduism, they take it with them to Hianan and then Formosa.
From there it reaches Okinawa and then Kyushu

Then whe have Shinto Hinduism competing with Shinto Buddhism.

 

[Flocculencio]

Then whe have Shinto Hinduism competing with Shinto Buddhism.

With the caveat that at this point in history it;ll robably still just be Shamanism as opposed to having coalesced into Shinto.

 

[rcduggan]

With the caveat that at this point in history it;ll robably still just be Shamanism as opposed to having coalesced into Shinto.

Good point. It was not until the arrival of Buddhism in the 6th century that Shintoism became anything more than a bunch of Shamanistic religions with some commonalities. But as Champa was Hindu beforehand, I don't see that as a problem. Hinduism would be much better able IMO to absorb the proto-Shinto religions, because AIOTL Hinduism had the ability to absorb the gods and beliefs of other religions. So there might be some Shinto influences on Japanese Hinduism, but AFAIK it would be considered no less Hindu than any other kind.

Or maybe I am completely wrong.

 

[Flocculencio]

Good point. It was not until the arrival of Buddhism in the 6th century that Shintoism became anything more than a bunch of Shamanistic religions with some commonalities. But as Champa was Hindu beforehand, I don't see that as a problem. Hinduism would be much better able IMO to absorb the proto-Shinto religions, because AIOTL Hinduism had the ability to absorb the gods and beliefs of other religions. So there might be some Shinto influences on Japanese Hinduism, but AFAIK it would be considered no less Hindu than any other kind.

Or maybe I am completely wrong.

Yes- just as in SE Asia, Hinduism will have slightly different flavours and emphases in Japan than in India. Basically this means they'll still have the same pantheon and add to that all the local beliefs. This is the case with Hinduism everywhere. The actual people in different regions primarily have their own little village shrines to local deities and they make their daily offerings and whatnot there. The actual official pantheon of gods with worship generally directed at either Shiva or Vishnu tends to work more as an official state religion kind of thing- the King and his brahmins will pray and make offerings to them but the people will probably only bother with this at major festivals. Thus throughout the year you might see a Japanese Hindu carrying out rituals to his local "Shinto" spirits but on the major festivals he goes and makes offerings at the big Shiva temple or something.

 

[DuQuense]

think Hendryk should redo His map to include Formosa in the Arc.

I think this increaced Hindu Arc would prevent Islam from getting such a grip on Indonesia

It may also lead to more European Contact with Northern Asia in the 15~1600's.

A English or French settlement of Sakhalin Island. Don't dismiss the possibility, OTL it was a Focus of the Fur trade in the late 1700's~early 1800's.
A 1600's French Sakhalin would totally Butterfly Asia to the point of non-recognition.

 

[rcduggan]

The actual official pantheon of gods with worship generally directed at either Shiva or Vishnu tends to work more as an official state religion kind of thing-

I read on Britannica that the Hinduism which spread to Champa was Shaivist, FWIW. Sorry I can't comment more, but I am not that knowledgeable about Hinduism.

think Hendryk should redo His map to include Formosa in the Arc.

I think this increaced Hindu Arc would prevent Islam from getting such a grip on Indonesia

It may also lead to more European Contact with Northern Asia in the 15~1600's.

A English or French settlement of Sakhalin Island. Don't dismiss the possibility, OTL it was a Focus of the Fur trade in the late 1700's~early 1800's.
A 1600's French Sakhalin would totally Butterfly Asia to the point of non-recognition.

As discussed earlier, there is a definite chance that in the centuries after the POD, Islam will be butterflied away.

And as for the last part, are you reading a different thread? If Japan is Hindu, Asia is already past the point of non-recognition. Speculating on what changes would happen thousands of years after and how that would change Asia is moot, already we would recognize next to nothing.

 

[Flocculencio]

I read on Britannica that the Hinduism which spread to Champa was Shaivist, FWIW. Sorry I can't comment more, but I am not that knowledgeable about Hinduism.

Yes, it would have been predominantly Shaivist, like the dominant strain of South Indian Hinduism.

As discussed earlier, there is a definite chance that in the centuries after the POD, Islam will be butterflied away.

And as for the last part, are you reading a different thread? If Japan is Hindu, Asia is already past the point of non-recognition. Speculating on what changes would happen thousands of years after and how that would change Asia is moot, already we would recognize next to nothing.

Sometimes people are a bit weird about butterflies that don't originate in the West

 

[MerryPrankster]

These are some really interesting ideas with the whole "Indian thassalocracy" thing.

The only idea I had involved an Indo-European tribe somehow crossing China (!) and ending up in Japan.

I just thought of the notion of an IE tribe trying to invade China and the First Emperor deports them all to Japan, but IIRC the timeframes are way off.

 

[rcduggan]

These are some really interesting ideas with the whole "Indian thassalocracy" thing.

The only idea I had involved an Indo-European tribe somehow crossing China (!) and ending up in Japan.

I just thought of the notion of an IE tribe trying to invade Chinaw and the First Emperor deports them all to Japan, but IIRC the timeframes are way off.

Some people say that the Tocharians founded the Shang Dynasty (or at least influenced it). The Tocharians were Indo-European, so it's not completely ASB that they could make their way to Japan. It would be 2000 years before the POD, but what the heck.