Challenge: Hillary v. Dubya

POD 1992, have them face off for the presidency. No assassinations or deaths from non-natural causes allowed.
 
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I'm not sure if I can think of a good POD specifically in 1992, but had Hillary wanted the democratic nomination in 2004, experience issues at that point aside ,it would probably have been hers for the asking. So the easiest way to do this is to simply have her convinced to run in 2004, which may be a bit harder than it sounds. I think someone wrote a timeline somewhere with just this premise, but I can remember the name of it at the present moment..

The other option I can think of, which is probably a bit closer to being utterly implausible, is somehow preventing George W. Bush from running in 2000, or at the very least preventing him from emerging triumphant in the Republican Primaries. Bush waits eight years under either President McCain/whoever the Republicans nominate in Bush's place, before running in 2008. Butterflies from no Bush administration means no Barack Obama candidacy, which in turn leads to Senator Clinton, again assuming she wins the NY Senate election ITTL, running against George Walker Bush in 2008.

I'm probably understating the difficulties involved in pulling either of these scenarios off, but in general terms I think the best option for Hillary vs. Bush is to either have Hillary run in 2004 or to have Bush run in 2008.

The problem for such a scenario is there's no scenario that I can see which would lead to a longer senate term and a W. Presidency. For example, the only pod actually in 1992 that I can think of is Bush Sr. defeating Bill Clinton. In that situation, I can't see W. running at any point given the fact that his father had a two term Presidency ending in 1997, but maybe I am under a mistaken set of impressions about why W. ran in 2000 in the first place.
 

Red Wolf

Banned
I think the easiest way is to have her run in 2004. She seriously considered it, but in the end backed down.

That said, if she does run, I'm not sure she wins the primaries. She made a lot of mistakes in 2008 and she wouldn't be able to portray herself as the most experienced candidate in this race. I think Kerry and Edwards would give her real problems.

Furthermore, if she won the nomination, I think she loses the race. People think Kerry reved up the Republican base. They have no idea what the Republicans would have done with her. Besides, there were a lot of other factors that would have come up. For example, would they be able to keep under wraps questions about who donated to the Clinton Foundation fund and would Marc Rich and a bunch of other sketchy Presidential pardons come back to haunt her.

She was far more green and raw in 2004 than she was in 2008 and most importantly, I think she would very badly underestimate Dubya the way all of his opponents did.
 
In Game Change they said that Bush's strategists (possibly including The Karl) considered her the most formidable candidate. Unlike the others she was tough as nails and could not be eaten for breakfast by Rove & Co. Kerry is a patrician flip-flopper and Edwards is an empty suit. Among her secret 2004 backers was Tom Vilsack, which should give her a major leg up in Iowa.
 
I'm not sure if I can think of a good POD specifically in 1992, but had Hillary wanted the democratic nomination in 2004, experience issues at that point aside ,it would probably have been hers for the asking. So the easiest way to do this is to simply have her convinced to run in 2004, which may be a bit harder than it sounds. I think someone wrote a timeline somewhere with just this premise, but I can remember the name of it at the present moment..

The other option I can think of, which is probably a bit closer to being utterly implausible, is somehow preventing George W. Bush from running in 2000, or at the very least preventing him from emerging triumphant in the Republican Primaries. Bush waits eight years under either President McCain/whoever the Republicans nominate in Bush's place, before running in 2008. Butterflies from no Bush administration means no Barack Obama candidacy, which in turn leads to Senator Clinton, again assuming she wins the NY Senate election ITTL, running against George Walker Bush in 2008.

I'm probably understating the difficulties involved in pulling either of these scenarios off, but in general terms I think the best option for Hillary vs. Bush is to either have Hillary run in 2004 or to have Bush run in 2008.

The problem for such a scenario is there's no scenario that I can see which would lead to a longer senate term and a W. Presidency. For example, the only pod actually in 1992 that I can think of is Bush Sr. defeating Bill Clinton. In that situation, I can't see W. running at any point given the fact that his father had a two term Presidency ending in 1997, but maybe I am under a mistaken set of impressions about why W. ran in 2000 in the first place.
Glass Onion

Good points. How about this? OTL, until 2000. McCain elected in 2000. Serves two terms. Meanwhile, Hillary elected and re-elected Senator as IOTL.

Here is the real POD, and it's a doozy. Bush was elected to two full four year terms as Governor. Now there was speculation that he would run in 2000, but his Governorship would have two years to go. What if he decided to throw his hat in the ring for the open Texas Senate seat in 2002? His popularity means he wins in a walk, leaving his options open for 2008. Also, with six years in the Senate, he will have much more gravitas then in 2000.

So, Hillary against Bush? Bush wins. No way can Hillary go up against the Murdoch/Republican/Rovian Sound Machine. Bush will actually HAVE a mandate this time.
 
Hillary is probably one of the few Democrats who could survive a Rovian assault. After all, she survived them for 8 years as First Lady, so it's nothing new.
 
I think Bush waiting around until 2008 isn't terribly likely, though the GOP does have a nice habit of handing its last primary loser the nomination the next time around.

Let's try this on for size: McCain beats Bush in the primaries, but loses to Gore in 2000. Tricky because I think McCain could have won this won easily, but let's just say that he gets relatively "soft" during the 2000 campaign a few months later, and Gore barely wins, maybe even by winning the electoral vote while losing the popular vote. Bush will be a very viable 2004 candidate against 12 years of Democratic rule, which should give him an "exhaustion" edge over Gore. Hillary gets her OTL wait to gain experience, and is Bush's challenger in 2008.

In sum:

Gore beats McCain in 2000.
Bush beats Gore in 2004.
Bush vs. Hillary in 2008.
 
Running for President is a different order of magnitude

Hillary is probably one of the few Democrats who could survive a Rovian assault. After all, she survived them for 8 years as First Lady, so it's nothing new.
Again, I'm forced to disagree.*groan* I wish you were right, RogueBeaver. I really really wish I lived in a country that didn't repeatedly fall for the lies of the Right Wing Sound Machine over and over again. But as you well know, a lie circles the world twice while the truth is just getting it's shoes on.

During the Clinton Wars, I watched and listened to the same lies being presented over and over again. They'd be disproved, the liars would acknowledge their "mistake", and then move on to the next lie. If they couldn't come up with a particularly juicy lie during sweeps week, they would just dig down to the bottom of the pile of "disproved lies" and report the oldest to the viewers/listeners as "breaking news, we've just learned-*". Do you know how many times the "Black Clinton Lovechild Story" was regurgitated? Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, all together or separately. No matter how many DNA tests were run, it was on and on and on.

Hillary as Lesbian? The real truth was Hill and Bill had a battle royale in the Arkansas Governor's Mansion about Bill's husbandly duties.:eek: Seems he was so worn out from all the bimbo funny business he wasn't taking CARE of business back home. There are many disputes about what went on, but there is agreement on one point. When the fight reached it's zenith, Hill could be heard throught out the building, screaming at the top of her lungs: "I NEED TO BE F****D MORE THAN TWICE A MONTH!!":mad::mad:

The Foster Suicide? The Machine would have you believe Bill held him down while Hill unloaded a 50 round box of 38's into the poor man.

The Rose Law Firm records? The Machine screamed on and on: "They were late turning them in! Late I say! LATE LATE LATE LATE LATE!!!" Of course, they never mentioned that there was never anything IN those records that was criminal, illegal, unethical, or even immoral.:D
 

Sachyriel

Banned
POD: Jean Chretien loses that bet...nevermind, it's dirty

*DING!*

Hillary Clinton goes in with a left jab, her aim slightly off as Dubya smiles for a camera that he thinks is pointing at him. It's not, and it's just a Pringles chips can; Hillary ends up hitting him in the ear, making him stumble but letting her have a second chance. She goes straight for his guts, a hard right that makes him winded. She turns around and raises her hands above the air and the crowd of ladies in the F-section of the arena cheer and flash her. The shock of seeing lesbian body parts shocks Hillary, frozen with a grin on her face and her waving arm slowing down George gets up and launches himself at her. He takes her down from behind, but she grabs the ropes and the referee says "Rope Break!" and the old man releases.

Hillary gets up quicker, having less...dangly bits and climbs onto the turnbuckles at the corners of the ring and tries to back flip onto George, who's still slightly hunched over since his back hasn't been okay since that one time with the ugly horse. Hillary doesn't make it, she's not flexible enough and ends up face-down into the floor. Hew shoes fly off and hit George Bush in the face, both of them sending saliva from his mouth in a shot that will be captured by video and photo. Hillary's in pain and George has stumbled into the referee, dazed and confused. Bill tries to get in the ring but Mister Cheney trips him and then picks up a folding chair and slams it into the back of his head.

The round isn't over and the referee is knocked out, George having flailed into him so hard he was unconscious before George stood up and felt like saying "Mission Accomplished". Hillary stumbles up and turns to face George, who receives the chair from Cheney. He doesn't catch it correctly, missing the far-legs as it falls towards his face, breaking his nose as he swings it into Hillary's shoulder. He screams and drops it as Hillary tumbles to the ground. George has first blood, though his own, it makes him angry.

He decides he will try the corner-climbing moves as well, and as Hillary lays on the ground groaning about health care premiums he doesn't bother with fancy flips, he just jumps at her. In fact he was too eager, and flew over her, and lands face first a foot away from her. They both start crawling to grab the chair, though George is closer Hillary has a head start. They grab it at the same time with their right hands and go onto their knees to struggle in a tug-of-war with the chair.

This continues for a few seconds until George starts to stand up to get the better of her; Hillary stands up as well and George seeing how she did what he did, expects her to let go of the chair when he does. She doesn't, and it catches her by surprise, she pulls it back and the spinal support of the chair slams into her mouth. She cries out in pain and bends over to wipe her mouth as George aims a kick at her behind; though a fairly large target his drug-days have left him with an inability to have enough co-ordination to not choke on a pretzel, and ends up with his leg stuck on her back. So when Hillary stands straight George falls over, his other leg jumping (a reflex) and kicking her in the back of the leg. The both fall, this time with Hillarys legs entwined with Georges.

She knows how to use this position and winking at Bill (who blushes so red you'd think he was Chief of something) she traps George in a leglock, trying to get him to tap into submission. Cheney, seeing the ref getting up runs into the stage and slams both fists sideways into the poor mans head, knocking him out again so he can help Bush out of this. However before he can do that Howard Dean drops out of the rafters on a rope and gives Cheney a double-boot to the shoulders. Al Gore is sleeping soundly, despite the commotion. Hillary tightens on George and he's clenching both his eyes and rear in order to stay strong and not cry like a baby. He grabs the rope and the fans boo her for taking too long to disengage. She's horrified, and won't try it again, "clean fighting" she says to a nearby microphone in the refs hand before getting up.

With George back on his feet he lunges at Hillary while she tries to talk about how she's totally for traditional fighting values to the crowd, a Goldberg-esque spear that lands them in the middle of the ring. Straddling Mrs. Clinton he gets her with two hard shots to the face, right and left once before she brings up her legs around his head and kicks him in the face. The Lesbians in section-F get what they wanted and cheer louder, drowning out the other peoples gasps and screams of despair.

George covers his eyes, damaged by Hillary's high-heels for a bit and standing up while Hillary makes good use of the chair, getting him in the back and sending him down to the floor. He starts crawling to tag Cheney but Hillary grabs him by the legs and drags him away from the corner in order to further beat him with the folding chair. When she's had enough she rolls him over and pins him; The ref still isn't awake but it counts, the judges ring the bell.
*DING DING DING*

The crowd goes crazy as Hillary's tired arm is lifted by the announcer, crowning her the champion....
 

Red Wolf

Banned
Hillary is probably one of the few Democrats who could survive a Rovian assault. After all, she survived them for 8 years as First Lady, so it's nothing new.

She got knocked around pretty badly in the primaries in 2008 and that was child's play compared to what she'd face in 2004.

Also lots of candidates who were supposed to be strong turned into duds. Remember Wesley Clarke and Fred Thompson and how they were supposed to shake things up.

Or for even better examples take a look at Jack Kemp from the 90s, or more recently Rudy Guiliani. All were thought to be formidible candidates and all proved to be busts.

Also, the idea that she'd win because of how "tough" she is is ludicrous. John Kerry decided to base his whole campaign around the idea that he was more macho than George Bush and despite three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star that failed. Just because the media talk about someone being "tough" doesn't mean it will translate into action. For example a lot of Hillary's fans talk about how she'd have pushed through a better healthcare bill than Obama.

What do they think would have happened. That she'd glare at the Republicans, they'd piss themselves and then vote for the bill to get her to stop glaring at them?

Also, remember just how chaotic and badly mismanaged her 2008 campaign was and all the problems Bill caused for her? Do you think in 2004 when she was even less experienced, things would have been better.

Keep in mind that while it's now obvious why Kerry was an awful candidate, up until the start of the general election, he was thought to be a great candidate.

Elections are unpredictable and people who stare into crystal balls wind up with facefulls of glass.
 
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