Challenge - have the Reformation dated from the time of the Waldensians

Researching family history, I've discovered that not only does one side likely trace to the Huguenots, it's possible, based on a few things, that part was originally Waldensians.

So, this made me curious about them, and I took a little time to post this challenge: Create a TL with a POD after 1150 (gives a little time for the situation in Ueopre to become favorable), where the Reformation is dated from 1179, when Valdez/Waldo continued to preach despitebeing ordered not to by the Pope.

The requirements:

1. The Waldensians exist today in OTL, so the Waldensians of TTL must be as large as OTL's Lutherans, with Waldo seen as the forerunner.

2. If you decide to use the printing press to help their teachings (probably a wise move, that is one big difference in the time Luther lived) it must be invented after 1150 (I'll give you a few years to get it going). Extra points if yu can do it without the printing press being invented before 1200, though. Lots of extra piotns if you can do it without the printing press at all.

3. Points off if you use a cliche such as "Waldensian forces decisively defeat Genghis Khan, saving Europe and earning acclaim." You still win, but someone's likely to do better.:)
 
Last edited:
it can be changed some, but not a whole lot; there are parts of Lutheranism that are still close to Catholicism (consubstantiation versus transsubstantiation, for instance), so you can change it a little, to make it seem a little less heretical. but, not much. And, you say there doens't have to be an oath of poverty, but there still has to be a sense that huge riches are frowned upon - i.e.: they have to be used for "the greater good of mankind." (Which would probably be necessary to build an army.)
 
Perhaps if you delay the rise of the Albegensian Cathars by a couple decades, so either:
  • The Cathars rise to prominance shortly after the Waldensians and form a unified front against the Catholic Church, or
  • The communities which in OTL became Cathar become Waldensian in TTL.
In either case, the Catholic response is spread more thinly, the heretics have a larger critical mass, and the Inquisition techniques developed to surpress the Cathars are not immediately available to surpress the Waldensians.

Maybe make the Church's early surpression of the Cathars around 1150 superficially more successful?
 

Philip

Donor
there are parts of Lutheranism that are still close to Catholicism (consubstantiation versus transsubstantiation, for instance),

Actually, Luther would likely have thrown a consubstantiationist into the Elbe. Consubstantiation was Scotus's theology, but that is neither here nor there.


And, you say there doens't have to be an oath of poverty, but there still has to be a sense that huge riches are frowned upon - i.e.: they have to be used for "the greater good of mankind." (Which would probably be necessary to build an army.)

That's what I was concerned about. The oath of poverty is going to make it difficult to get political support for the movement.
 
Actually, Luther would likely have thrown a consubstantiationist into the Elbe. Consubstantiation was Scotus's theology, but that is neither here nor there.

That's what I was concerned about. The oath of poverty is going to make it difficult to get political support for the movement.

Ah, okay, I get those mixed up. Thanks. Anyway, regarding the oath, "general good of mankind" can be used loosely, of course. Perhaps meaning, to some weathy people, "freeing people from the bonds of oppression," say. Or you could have a corrollary which says something like what...I believe Andrew Carnegie said, that's it's okay tobe rich, but it's a sin to die with hordes of weatlth, so it should be spent during one's life as much as one can.
 

Philip

Donor
Anyway, regarding the oath, "general good of mankind" can be used loosely, of course. Perhaps meaning, to some weathy people, "freeing people from the bonds of oppression," say. Or you could have a corrollary which says something like what...

This could work. The local nobles can remain wealthy, but instead of giving tithes to the Church, the money is given directly to the poor. Alternately, the tithe is given to the Church with the understanding that it is spent locally rather than being sent on to Rome. This could strengthen the local nobles and given the incentive to support the movement.
 
This could work. The local nobles can remain wealthy, but instead of giving tithes to the Church, the money is given directly to the poor. Alternately, the tithe is given to the Church with the understanding that it is spent locally rather than being sent on to Rome. This could strengthen the local nobles and given the incentive to support the movement.

Any other takers?

I thnk the tithes being given to the church makes enough sense; as in, "Join us, and we'll be sure that your tithe remains local." While there wans't nationalism per se here, though there were large nations emerging such as France, There might be enough disatisfied nobles that something could start that allowed more support.

The tricky part is going to be, how easily can things spread? Waldo's preaching helps, but at some point, it would probably help to have a "95 Theses" analogy, too.

So, anyone want to continue this idea? I know the Britons Triumphant timeline has it, but I also know how little time I have even to come here, so I udnerstand it's got to be crazy to have time to put a TL together like that.
 
Top