Challenge- Großdeutschland Possible

How can you make Großdeutschland possible, with it still existing today. The Earliest POD is 1938 following the Annexation of the Sudetenland and Austria.

You get Double Points if you can have World War II avoided, Triple if an unmentionable Sea Mammal that is plausible works.

And you get the prized SEA MAMMAL MEDAL if you have a POD no earlier than 1991, with a modern Nationalist Germany.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Isn'r Grossdeutschland just Germany and Austria united. You just need a pro- German sentiment in Austria in the 90s, and I don't think a modern Anschluss is out of the question.
 
I just cannot see it post-1990. Austria is so not on the German's radar...

Also, nowadays, within the framework of the EU, it is not the worst idea to be a medium-to-small scale nation. The Austrians would lose their complete international influence (of which they had less than none between the wars) and a lot of their economic flexibility (being part of Groß-Europa anyways) whereas 1919s Austria was hardly economically viable.

If you butterfly away European integration, things might be different, but not with a POD around 1990.

---

On earlier PODs: you do not need the bonus points (and Sealion has hardly a thing to do with it). You cannot have a Großdeutschland without Germany either avoiding or winning (if decisive or not) World War 2.

Solutions where the Allies treat Austria as a part of Germany instead of halfway seperately are in my opinion ASB.
 

JJohnson

Banned
The best chance for a Groß-Deutschland would be a POD in the second half of the 19th century. Possibly one where Austria-Hungary collapses after the Franco-Prussian War, or Germany allies with Britain instead of Russia, and is an Ally in WW1; with that, it would be more likely to absorb Austria and Bohemia/Moravia (or at least the Sudetenland) in the aftermath of that war.
 
You should read this TL of mine: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=137010. It involves a coup against Hitler in 1938 after he tries to go to war with Czechoslovakia over Sudetenland after Chamberlain requests a one day delay in the negotiations; impatient as Hitler was, he doesn't want to wait for that so orders an invasion. The generals know Czechoslovakia is a tough nut to crack and that France might oppose this. They don't want to fight a war they could very well lose so a coup happens.
 
Alternate Groβ Deutschland:

Starting in 1938:
History is before as in OTL. Deutschland annexes both Sudetenland and Austria as historically, but also makes a secret temporary alliance with the USSR, including the dividing of Poland, which was never wanted by both signing partners. Part of the deal is that both sign up to start the conquest of Poland in September 1939.

When September 1939 continues, the slow and less flexible Red Army, who had already started preparations to conquer East Poland in 1938, launches its attack on the Polish border on the 21st of the month, while the German Wehrmacht still stalls in Germany itself, mimicking the preparations of attack against Poland. Since the USSR also invades Finland and the Baltic States, the West, namely the UK and France deliver the USSR an ultimatum to withdraw, or risk war against these two Western Allies. Germany reacts to this by unexpectedly allying itself with these Western Allies, thereby terminating its treaty with the USSR. The result is that the USSR is unable to withdraw instantly, even if it was willing to do so, resulting in the official declaration of war against the USSR by the UK, France and Deutschland.

The fighting was a one sided affair, since the Red Army still had not recovered from Stalin’s cleancing of the Officercorps in the 30’s. It also faced tough resistance from both the small but well trained Polish Army, as well as Finnish troops, showing the weaknesses of the Red Army very clearly.

On the 24th of Oktober the Wehrmacht finally invaded Poland, to “liberate” Polish people from the Russian occupation, quickly defeating the Russian army and the Polish as well as “collateral damage”, rushing forward deep into Russian territory, before winter started to fall in. Since war had come far too early for the USSR, actually preparing for a major war, at first in half 1942, the Russians were completely surprised and defeated by the first real slug out with the German Blitz. They still had not recovered from the first blows in early 1940, when the march of the Wehrmacht restarted again, conquering vast lands of the USSR, bypassing the major cities and laying waist to Russian communication and transportlines, cutting off entire armies and forced them to surrender. In April 1940, the Germans were beginning to face problems with the over 5 million prisoners of war, resulting in some nasty affairs, also being noticed by the French and British governments, who had done almost nothing so far, due to their lack of military capacity, to fight so far away.

Both Allies of Germany politely asked Hitler to stop the crimes against the Soviet people, but found no hearing ear. They were more serious about the freedom of Poland, as it already was freed of Soviet occupation. Due to the unwillingness of the Germans, arguing that the thread of the USSR was still not over, this resulted in an ultimatum to Germany on the 9th of May, followed by the withdrawal of Germany from the earlier alliance treaty. On the 10th War was declared by the Western Allies on Germany.

Germany had expected this and anticipated on the news, by a quick and sudden invasion of the Low Countries and Northern France, before the Allies realized what was happening. Since the Wehrmacht already had won the war against the USSR basically, troops and heavy equipment had been shipped to the western borders in the winter months. The continuing war against the USSR was merely a mopping up mission of left over Russian troops and armies, while the bulk of the Wehrmacht was now on the western border, well trained and experienced, to fight yet another war.

Within a month France had capitulated, the Low Countries occupied, Norway and Danemark invaded and taken, leaving only the UK alone to face both Germany and its Allies (Italy in the Med. and Japan for the future in the Asian area.) Now the major task was to get rid of the threat of the UK, as the Germans still wanted to focus more on the remaining part of (Asian) USSR, where the Red Army still had some strong reserves, as was suspected at least. (In reality this was only on paper, since the Red Army was struck by desertions on a massive scale, and revolts against the Communist Party, resulting in the capture of Stalin in Novosibirsk, followed by the exchange of him to the Germans in exchange for a hollow promise to end the conflict. Stalin was paraded in Berlin and executed for high treason in a show trial on the 13th of August 1940).

Germany now controlled most of continental Europe in the start of 1941 and there was no real danger to its safety in the East. Only the UK remained a potential threat in the West, but dared not to invade on its own, due to the German control of the beaches and the air over the continent. Although still ruling the waves, the continental system of the Reich, resulted in a growing economy in Germany, while the UK was struck by loss of clients on the continent, as trade between the UK and European homeland was obstructed.

Then on the 21st of June 1941, the masterpiece of German Diplomacy unfolded. Churchill was forced to resign, being replaced by his predecessor Chamberlain again, who was bribed by influential British industrials to make peace at all costs, to restart the economy again. This was set in motion by German agents, who wanted to get the UK into German hands, without a fight.

On the 14th of July the same year, Chamberlain ordered an Armistice and started negotiations with Germany to end the war, which both really wanted. A week later both countries signed peace and tied up economic relations, ending the war in Europe, changing focus to the Far East, where Japan was to enter the conflict as well. (Italy too signed peace, as it was forced to do so by its German Ally.)

In the early days of November 1941, Germany and the UK allied themselves again, resulting in the combined deployment of troops and ships in each others territory. Now the Wehrmacht could enter the UK to train together with their British Ally and visa versa. The UK accepted the new political situation and shift in balance of power and actually was not all that bad after all in the new world, as it remained the biggest colonial power in the world.
 

Eurofed

Banned
You should read this TL of mine: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=137010. It involves a coup against Hitler in 1938 after he tries to go to war with Czechoslovakia over Sudetenland after Chamberlain requests a one day delay in the negotiations; impatient as Hitler was, he doesn't want to wait for that so orders an invasion. The generals know Czechoslovakia is a tough nut to crack and that France might oppose this. They don't want to fight a war they could very well lose so a coup happens.

This is an obvious PoD, which OW's TL develops very nicely.

Another is the success of anti-Nazi coups in March 1943 or July 1944, and post-Nazi germany managing to bargain a conditional surrender to the Anglo-Americans in exchange for guarantees of national unity and the pre-Munich borders.

A third one is the Soviets staging a Communist takeover of East Austria in 1949-50. Austria gets divided like Germany, the Anglo-Americans sponsor the second Anschluss of West Germany and West Austria, Grossdeutchsland gets reunified after the Cold War. This TL has the nifty political feature of a double Western enclave in West Berlin and West Vienna, and the Twin Berlin-Vienna Wall. This TL uses such a PoD.
 
This is an obvious PoD, which OW's TL develops very nicely.

-snip-

Thank you:). Btw, if your into Hohenzollern restoration, an early unified Europe and a World War II waged by a Soviet-Japanese Axis which is even more evil than OTL Axis in an awesome WW2 (Soviet tanks outside of Jerusalem and New Delhi:D) than this is what you're looking for [/shameless advertisement]:p
 
Alternate Groβ Deutschland:

Starting in 1938:
History is before as in OTL. Deutschland annexes both Sudetenland and Austria as historically, but also makes a secret temporary alliance with the USSR, including the dividing of Poland, which was never wanted by both signing partners. Part of the deal is that both sign up to start the conquest of Poland in September 1939.

When September 1939 continues, the slow and less flexible Red Army, who had already started preparations to conquer East Poland in 1938, launches its attack on the Polish border on the 21st of the month, while the German Wehrmacht still stalls in Germany itself, mimicking the preparations of attack against Poland. Since the USSR also invades Finland and the Baltic States, the West, namely the UK and France deliver the USSR an ultimatum to withdraw, or risk war against these two Western Allies. Germany reacts to this by unexpectedly allying itself with these Western Allies, thereby terminating its treaty with the USSR. The result is that the USSR is unable to withdraw instantly, even if it was willing to do so, resulting in the official declaration of war against the USSR by the UK, France and Deutschland.

The fighting was a one sided affair, since the Red Army still had not recovered from Stalin’s cleancing of the Officercorps in the 30’s. It also faced tough resistance from both the small but well trained Polish Army, as well as Finnish troops, showing the weaknesses of the Red Army very clearly.

On the 24th of Oktober the Wehrmacht finally invaded Poland, to “liberate” Polish people from the Russian occupation, quickly defeating the Russian army and the Polish as well as “collateral damage”, rushing forward deep into Russian territory, before winter started to fall in. Since war had come far too early for the USSR, actually preparing for a major war, at first in half 1942, the Russians were completely surprised and defeated by the first real slug out with the German Blitz. They still had not recovered from the first blows in early 1940, when the march of the Wehrmacht restarted again, conquering vast lands of the USSR, bypassing the major cities and laying waist to Russian communication and transportlines, cutting off entire armies and forced them to surrender. In April 1940, the Germans were beginning to face problems with the over 5 million prisoners of war, resulting in some nasty affairs, also being noticed by the French and British governments, who had done almost nothing so far, due to their lack of military capacity, to fight so far away.

Both Allies of Germany politely asked Hitler to stop the crimes against the Soviet people, but found no hearing ear. They were more serious about the freedom of Poland, as it already was freed of Soviet occupation. Due to the unwillingness of the Germans, arguing that the thread of the USSR was still not over, this resulted in an ultimatum to Germany on the 9th of May, followed by the withdrawal of Germany from the earlier alliance treaty. On the 10th War was declared by the Western Allies on Germany.

Germany had expected this and anticipated on the news, by a quick and sudden invasion of the Low Countries and Northern France, before the Allies realized what was happening. Since the Wehrmacht already had won the war against the USSR basically, troops and heavy equipment had been shipped to the western borders in the winter months. The continuing war against the USSR was merely a mopping up mission of left over Russian troops and armies, while the bulk of the Wehrmacht was now on the western border, well trained and experienced, to fight yet another war.

Within a month France had capitulated, the Low Countries occupied, Norway and Danemark invaded and taken, leaving only the UK alone to face both Germany and its Allies (Italy in the Med. and Japan for the future in the Asian area.) Now the major task was to get rid of the threat of the UK, as the Germans still wanted to focus more on the remaining part of (Asian) USSR, where the Red Army still had some strong reserves, as was suspected at least. (In reality this was only on paper, since the Red Army was struck by desertions on a massive scale, and revolts against the Communist Party, resulting in the capture of Stalin in Novosibirsk, followed by the exchange of him to the Germans in exchange for a hollow promise to end the conflict. Stalin was paraded in Berlin and executed for high treason in a show trial on the 13th of August 1940).

Germany now controlled most of continental Europe in the start of 1941 and there was no real danger to its safety in the East. Only the UK remained a potential threat in the West, but dared not to invade on its own, due to the German control of the beaches and the air over the continent. Although still ruling the waves, the continental system of the Reich, resulted in a growing economy in Germany, while the UK was struck by loss of clients on the continent, as trade between the UK and European homeland was obstructed.

Then on the 21st of June 1941, the masterpiece of German Diplomacy unfolded. Churchill was forced to resign, being replaced by his predecessor Chamberlain again, who was bribed by influential British industrials to make peace at all costs, to restart the economy again. This was set in motion by German agents, who wanted to get the UK into German hands, without a fight.

On the 14th of July the same year, Chamberlain ordered an Armistice and started negotiations with Germany to end the war, which both really wanted. A week later both countries signed peace and tied up economic relations, ending the war in Europe, changing focus to the Far East, where Japan was to enter the conflict as well. (Italy too signed peace, as it was forced to do so by its German Ally.)

In the early days of November 1941, Germany and the UK allied themselves again, resulting in the combined deployment of troops and ships in each others territory. Now the Wehrmacht could enter the UK to train together with their British Ally and visa versa. The UK accepted the new political situation and shift in balance of power and actually was not all that bad after all in the new world, as it remained the biggest colonial power in the world.

Great Timeline, the only inconsistency is that Chamberlain died in 1940, so I would see Halifax replacing Churchill, and Halifax was very Pro-Peace.

Or do what I did and have Oswald Mosley lead a Fascist Coup in Britain:p
 
Good suggestion, I just missed Nevil Chamberlain's passing away somehow, but Halifax will suit well. By the way, I think a Fascist Coup would have been a bit too strange to happen in a normally Democratic Brittain, so I purposely opted for a more traditional change of government thing, which was very likely in the UK in the troublesome early waryears.

By the way, who actually were the leading politicians in the UK in the specific period, appart from the common names Churchill, Chamberlain, Hallifax and Mosley? I am not quite familliar with the smaller parties and factions of that episode in Brittain.
 
Aside from Chamberlain, the only thing I can see that makes a lot less sense is this:

I don't see Germany having access to the UK and not making outrageous demands for colonial territory, etc. Of course, Hitler always wanted the UK as an ally, so maybe he'd treat them with dignity and respect (unlike his ally Italy...).

Of course, I also don't see the German army smashing the Russians in their first go. The Germans had not had 3 separate campaigns in your TL to train and prepare. Remember, the Germans lost more troops against the backwards Polish than they did against the Low Countries, France, and the BEF (and the 3rd was the Balkans). The Germans learned from their mistakes in Poland and used those lessons on the French and the Russians. If they haven't had such a tutorial, they wouldn't have smacked the Russians (quite) so hard.
 
The best chance for a Groß-Deutschland would be a POD in the second half of the 19th century. Possibly one where Austria-Hungary collapses after the Franco-Prussian War, or Germany allies with Britain instead of Russia, and is an Ally in WW1; with that, it would be more likely to absorb Austria and Bohemia/Moravia (or at least the Sudetenland) in the aftermath of that war.

And then Greece ends up with Anatolia?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 
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How can you make Großdeutschland possible, with it still existing today. The Earliest POD is 1938 following the Annexation of the Sudetenland and Austria.

You get Double Points if you can have World War II avoided, Triple if an unmentionable Sea Mammal that is plausible works.

And you get the prized SEA MAMMAL MEDAL if you have a POD no earlier than 1991, with a modern Nationalist Germany.

This TL https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119376 doesn't meet the requirements of the OP as it has an 1878 PoD, but it should still be fun. It features a Russo-German-Italian triple alliance which dismembers Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire after winning an alt-WW2. France is thoroughly beaten and Britain surrenders, losing most of its empire to this Triple Alliance.
 
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