Challenge: Germany wins air superiority

Heinkel 219 was not developed because of political antipathy to the Heinkel company. The RLM was not impressed with Heinkel's display of private enterprise in submitting the design. This political grudge also was part of the reason the RLM chose the Heinkel 112 instead of the Messerschmitt Bf 109, even though the He 112 was faster and had a longer range.
 
No piece of hardware is going to win any war it's the people wielding the weapons and how well they use them.
 
If the Luftwaffe figure out dropping bits of tin foil can blind radar...

Most importantly the Germans have to have a clear strategy instead of keep changing targets.
 
If the Luftwaffe figure out dropping bits of tin foil can blind radar...

Most importantly the Germans have to have a clear strategy instead of keep changing targets.

the luftwaffe knew about chaff first they called it duppel... goering forbade them to use it because he was afraid the allies would copy it
 
the luftwaffe knew about chaff first they called it duppel... goering forbade them to use it because he was afraid the allies would copy it


Thats a common nazi mistake. The Germans went to all the trouble of developing a subcalibre discarded sabot, fin stabilized steel long rod penetrator/carrier shell made of super hard chrom-vanadium-Molyibdium steel, in order to defeat the Maginote line bunkers . In tests after the fall of France these arrow shells fired through hugh howizters , penetrated 3-4 meters of concrete plus more thickness of earth and concrete etc... In retrospect 'they where for all intents and purposes' FSAPDS rounds.

Reportedly 6000 such shells were made for the super howitzers and another million smaller ones made for 37mm & 50mm guns....and probably the 75L24 guns. But they were almost never used because Hitler was afraid that the enemy might capture some , discover the design secrete and use them against Germany. :eek:
 
No one plane is going to give Germany air supremacy in 1944-45. Germany's problem was systemic and a result of poor long range planning and an unwillingness of Nazi leadership to put Germany's economy on a pure war footing until too late. Also, once the USSR is involved the problems are further magnified since the majority of the best trained and most experienced fighter units are in the East. But if we give the Nazi's the benifit of hindsight that the war woud not be over in 1941, here's some ideas:

(1) Foster (not retard) R&D and production of new planes to supplement and replace current models. More than any other major power, Germany seems to have put so many eggs into so very few baskets. Where the US, Britain, and USSR commonly supported the development and production of a variety of similar fighters and bombers for essentially the same tasks, the RLM tended to focus on one or two key types and hope they were initial successes and/or had the stretch to still be first-line 5 years later. They were lucky with the Bf-109 and even more so with the Fw-190. But this philosophy virtually crippled German quality in most other major categories. Highly favored new types (such as the Ju-288, Me-210, or He-177) were failures, often because they were designed to fullfill a variety of roles better filled by more specialized aircraft). Otherwise excellent planes (like the He-100, Fw-187, He-219) were opposed for political reasons or because of the "one basket" notion.

(2) Fight the BoB differently (focus almost entirely on damaging the British aircraft industry and RAF), and put more effort into maintaining some sort of continued bombing campaign over Britain during 1942-44. This would force the RAF and USAAF to expend resources in defending their own bases and/or to move them farther to the north. Of course this would require long-range bombers more capable than the He-111 or Ju-88 and escort fighters better than the Bf-110 (see point 1 above). This would be a very costly war of attrition, but it would at least delay the buildup of allied airpower in NW Europe.

(3) Uhh...don't attack the USSR until you believe you can maintain a Luftwaffe presence over the southern British isles and NW Europe to at least keep these areas contested airspace with the expected diversion of resources to the Eastern Front.

(4) Do whatever is possible to interdict the buildup of US forces and equipment in Britain. This is where I believe the failure of Germany to develop an effective long-range bomber force really hurts them. A force of several thousand strategic bombers and long range fighters that actually worked like they were supposed to and dedicated to maritime recon and coordination with U-boats might have made a big difference in the Battle of the Atlantic
 
Heinkel 219 was not developed because of political antipathy to the Heinkel company. The RLM was not impressed with Heinkel's display of private enterprise in submitting the design. This political grudge also was part of the reason the RLM chose the Heinkel 112 instead of the Messerschmitt Bf 109, even though the He 112 was faster and had a longer range.

Sorry, the Bf-109 was selected because it easily bested the He-112A in exhaustive tests. In fact, it was Messerchmitt who suffered from political grudges at the time and his Bf-109 had to overcome the fact that the He-112A entered the contest as the political favorite. RLM antipathy toward Heinkel later in the war was slow to evolve, and some of it was probably deserved. Most of the later decisions that went against Heinkel (refusal to sanction production of the improved He-112B, the He-100, He-280, and He-219) had as much to do with the RLM's disinclination to produce new types when it believed existing types or other types already in development would be just as good. Perhaps the He-219 did suffer from political prejudice, but the other types just didn't fit into the RLM's short-sighted vision.
 
That's about right. Also the Germans should have halted Bf 109 production after the F model and only built Fw 190s, it was a better airplane. And they should have built Fw 187 instead of Bf 110 and made the Heinkel 177 a normal four engined plane.
I guess by the middle of 1942 it was too late for the Germans to win the war. With Japan defeated at Midway and the Americans starting to adjust to full-scale war there wasn't any chance for complete victory.
 
That's about right. Also the Germans should have halted Bf 109 production after the F model and only built Fw 190s, it was a better airplane. And they should have built Fw 187 instead of Bf 110 and made the Heinkel 177 a normal four engined plane.
I guess by the middle of 1942 it was too late for the Germans to win the war. With Japan defeated at Midway and the Americans starting to adjust to full-scale war there wasn't any chance for complete victory.

you cant stop building the 109 if you want to beat the allies
the 190 because of the radial engine didnt perform well aboe 25000 feet which as the war continued on was where a lot of the fighting moved to.

The one 190 was extremely effective on the russian front because all the fighting was on the deck

the better pod is to give the 190 an inline db engine
 
The Germans gave the Focke Wulf 190 an inverted-vee liquid cooled engine to make the Fw 190D model, which was one of the best (perhaps THE best) widely used fighters of the Second World War.
Also the Germans were developing the Ta 152, a high-altitude development of the Fw 190D, which would have been fearsome indeed.
The Bf 109G/K models sacrificed handling qualities for speed and firepower. By the 109K it had reached the limit of its capability, while the Ta 152 could have been developed a lot more and remained useful well into the late 1940s.
 

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Oh, why bother. No point in trying to convince a Luft 46 fanboy.:rolleyes:

The Germans gave the Focke Wulf 190 an inverted-vee liquid cooled engine to make the Fw 190D model, which was one of the best (perhaps THE best) widely used fighters of the Second World War.
Also the Germans were developing the Ta 152, a high-altitude development of the Fw 190D, which would have been fearsome indeed.
The Bf 109G/K models sacrificed handling qualities for speed and firepower. By the 109K it had reached the limit of its capability, while the Ta 152 could have been developed a lot more and remained useful well into the late 1940s.
 
you cant stop building the 109 if you want to beat the allies
the 190 because of the radial engine didnt perform well aboe 25000 feet which as the war continued on was where a lot of the fighting moved to.

The one 190 was extremely effective on the russian front because all the fighting was on the deck

the better pod is to give the 190 an inline db engine


Yeah I thought of having the FW-190 redesigned to accept the DB-605 engine. You could save 500 kg due to smaller engine area and lighter engine [700kg vs 1050kg]. It would result in less mass so lower wing loading and about the same power to weight at low altitude while not loosing any where near as much power at altitude as the BMW-801 engine.

Better yet , the resources going into produce each BMW engine were enourmous , about 5 tons for each one ton engine. Even at the end of the war after 20,000 of these engines had been produced, the ratio was still 2.5 tons of resources for every 1 ton engine. The DB engine, being already an extension of the DB 601 engine and Development of the DB-600 , would already be quite rationalised in productivity and resources, so its likely they could produce 3 x DB-605 for every BMW-801 engine.

I heard some where that one of the main reasons the FW-190 had to wait until 1941 for serious producion was due to delays in the development of the BMW engine which was not ready before that date. With the DB engine this would much less of a problem so it could be that FW-190 appears of the UK during the BoB?
 
All the Luftwaffe needs to do is concentrate resources on its hypersonic fighters and sub-orbital bombers in 1936 and the BoB would have been won in 2 hours:p
 
They definitely needed to train more people to fly, and try to actually perform missions efficiently instead of flying their best into tired oblivion chasing propaganda victories.
 
Yeah I thought of having the FW-190 redesigned to accept the DB-605 engine. You could save 500 kg due to smaller engine area and lighter engine [700kg vs 1050kg]. It would result in less mass so lower wing loading and about the same power to weight at low altitude while not loosing any where near as much power at altitude as the BMW-801 engine.

Better yet , the resources going into produce each BMW engine were enourmous , about 5 tons for each one ton engine. Even at the end of the war after 20,000 of these engines had been produced, the ratio was still 2.5 tons of resources for every 1 ton engine. The DB engine, being already an extension of the DB 601 engine and Development of the DB-600 , would already be quite rationalised in productivity and resources, so its likely they could produce 3 x DB-605 for every BMW-801 engine.

I heard some where that one of the main reasons the FW-190 had to wait until 1941 for serious producion was due to delays in the development of the BMW engine which was not ready before that date. With the DB engine this would much less of a problem so it could be that FW-190 appears of the UK during the BoB?

i have a thread about that... there where delays in getting the radial engines produced and delivered. it seemed to be the consensus of the boardmembers here that although the brits would suffer nastier casualties it wouldnt be a war winner in 1940.. i also included a non dive bombing modified ju88 in the scenario
 
The problem was gas. At the end of the war, the Germans had planes, and they had pilots, but neither could do much because the Germans had a gasoline shortage.
 
Comparison between Bf 109K-4 and Ta 152.

Messerschmitt Bf 109K-4
Max speed: 452mph
Range: 357 miles
Service ceiling: 41,000 ft
Armament: 1 x 30mm, 2 x 15mm cannon

Focke-Wulf Ta 152
Max speed: 472mph
Range: 755 miles
Service ceiling: 48,500 ft
Armament: 1 x 30mm, 2 x 20mm cannon

Fw 190D and, especially, Ta 152 was much better than the Bf 109.
 
The problem was gas. At the end of the war, the Germans had planes, and they had pilots, but neither could do much because the Germans had a gasoline shortage.


The aviation gas problem was a catch 22 problem that was more tied to pilot training than fuel shortage. They had enough pilots to sustain a standing force of about ~ 4000 planes through out the war that were more bombers than fighters. This was based on a training programme with ~ 3000 advanced and primary trainers plus teachers. The average pilot got about 250 hours of flying training before being qualified, and this seemed to put them in good standing vis vee air combat through out the war.

By 1943 they had accepted that with a two front war approaching they needed to raise the base number of pilots trained. Given the system they had the only solution was to train more pilots by reducing the number of flying hours to about 180 hours per pilot to qualify. But strictly speaking that would only result in about 5500 planes. To try to bring the numbers higher the proportion of bombers to fighters also changed. As a rule a bomber requires two pilots trained while a fighter is just one. So larger numbers of fighters could be reached by reducing the number of bombers accordingly. This was done in 1943/44...allowing the numbers to climb to ~ 6000 -7000 planes flying.

But with fewer flying hours they didn't do as well in air battles of 1943/44 and the allies were able to finally impose their attrition of the German war industry to reduce the Germans before invasion. No surprise that the first thing they targeted was the german aviation industry and associated fuel industry. With dwindling supply of fuel the training hours had to be cut even further to about 50 hours , at which point the fighters were useless in battle...no matter what plane they had.

To reverse this they need to either stick to a one front war , or develope a counter to allied bombing. Jet interceptors and SAMs are one solution but they need to be developed in 1942 not 1944. However the LW traditional solution to airsuperiority was not air combat but bombing the enemy air feilds ahead of an advancing army as was done in 'Barbarossa'. So maybe a better solution was missile equipped jet bombers to attack allied airfeilds and SAMs for defence by 1942/43?
 
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remember the dates involved kyle... the fighters you are preferring are developed too late for the germans to reassert air superiority, its not that the germany didnt have futuristic designs for 1946 :)
 
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