Challenge: Germany unified, but not under Austria or Prussia

Valdemar II

Banned
I think downgrading Prussia is the key problem. You can get you're target with the historical Austria because, barring dramatic changes it will always be tied to its non-German lands which prevents it forming a likely German unifier. Also, possibly because of its multi-national structure, it seems to have been plagued far more by bureaucracy and inefficiency.

That was primary a problem which began to develop between 1814-1848, before that it was a state on the forefront of institutional developments. Honesty I blame the reactionary wave which hit Austria after the Napoleon Wars. Ironic a major part of the problem was wrong analyses of long term developments. If they had choose short term gain in 1815 rather than setting up the German Confederation, going after the rich North Italy and trying to set up the old status quo or a greater degree of economical integration of the German Confederation afterward Austria would have done much better.

The best thing they could have done in 1815 was to say fuck long term gain and try to so much of Germany as possible, split Saxony with Prussia, push as hard as possible for land from Bavaria and afterward they should have tried to push a unitarian state over their empire.
 
I think downgrading Prussia is the key problem. You can get you're target with the historical Austria because, barring dramatic changes it will always be tied to its non-German lands which prevents it forming a likely German unifier. Also, possibly because of its multi-national structure, it seems to have been plagued far more by bureaucracy and inefficiency.

I absolutely agree, but in any scenario regarding this challenge, we have to keep Austria from growing into Germany. If Austria gets Saxony and/or Silesia, that would create (combined with Bohemia) an economic core for Austria just as the Rhine/Ruhr was for Prussia.

If Austria gets too much out of Bavaria, then we might end up in the interesting situation that finally Germany will actually be Northern Germany (akin to the Norddeutsche Bund of 1867) whereas the Catholic South might over time be regarded as more different than alike.
 
It's kind of late for this to happen, move the POD back a hundred years and I could easily see Bavaria or Saxony being the one to unite Germany.
 
I absolutely agree, but in any scenario regarding this challenge, we have to keep Austria from growing into Germany. If Austria gets Saxony and/or Silesia, that would create (combined with Bohemia) an economic core for Austria just as the Rhine/Ruhr was for Prussia.

Well, if it'S only about Silesia, the remaining part of Germany is big enough to form a united country. Nevertheless, you hae a valid point: we need both Austria and Prussia to grow "out" of Germany. This may be done by destroying Prussia altogether by Napoleon or in the 7-years war. It may be done by Prussia growing into Poland and loosing its western parts.

For a POD during Napoleonic times, the problem will be that once Napoleon/France is defeated, the peace congress will want a "Wacht am Rhein", that is a great power guarding the Rhine frontier. Giving the Sarre to Prussia is probably the simplest way to do that.

With Prussia out, the situation is more complicated. Only Austira remains as a central European Great power. I doubt that the British would let them dominate Italy and Germany as defensive measures against France. Will the British promote a Confederation of the Rhine under their own leadership (Hannover) without Austria for defense against France and a similar confederation in Italy?
 
Well, if it'S only about Silesia, the remaining part of Germany is big enough to form a united country.

The problem is not the size of any non-Prussian/non-Habsburg Germany. The Confederation of the Rhine would be big enough to be a viable nation. What I rather perceive as crucial, and which had been a problem in OTL already when it came to excluding Austria, is to construct the "otherness" of the regions we have to exclude.

Will the British promote a Confederation of the Rhine under their own leadership (Hannover) without Austria for defense against France and a similar confederation in Italy?

Probably not, but it is a sweet idea. What a huge load of implications!
 
I had a random thought the other day. What about a Mitteldeutsche Lösung (I'm quite sure that's bad german) in 1848? Brandenburg yes Prussia no. The Archduchy yes, Austrian Empire no (akin to how the German Confederation did it). And of course neither the Prussians nor the Austrians would want the others as Emperor. However, there's a perfect noble house just waiting for the job; south german catholics with a minimal powerbase but a very interesting last name. The Swabian Hohenzollerns. A threat to neither great power but a natural ally to both by religion and geography on the one hand and blood on the other.
 
Have Napoleon completely dismember Prussia after Jena-Auerstedt. Then, Napoleon doesn't intervene in Spain, leading to Britain eventually being forced to accept the new status quo in Europe. The Confederation of the Rhine goes on to unite Germany.
 
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