Challenge:Germania Rules the Waves. By 1920

Ak-84

Banned
As the title says, have the Germans be the worlds premier Navy by 1920. You can have a WWI or a TL where we avoided it.

Heres one example, due to signaling errors (seen in OTL), the QE Dreadnaughts are unable to come up and support Beatty's BC at Jutland, leading to the destruction of the BC's when the HSF arrives and both the QE's and Admiral Hood's squadron arrive and are defeated in detail by the HSF before the main body of the Grand Fleet arrives and sufferes heavily.
 
This is a challenge since Germany has always placed well as a naval power but never enough to win - pretty much equal to how its accomplishments as a military power in the 20th century. A good starter but terrible follow through.

The defeat of the Grand Fleet at Jutland wouldn't even render the German's as lords of the seas. The great opponent the High Seas Fleet needs to defeat in that of the Imperial German Army. A Pax Germania is going to be harder to figure out since Germany sits squarely in the middle of a continent surrounded by other nations.
 
The other thing is, victory at Jutland would come at a cost. The biggest winner would be the US navy.

You have to avoid WW1, I think. The POD would have to be a LOT earlier.

You have to eliminate Britain as a naval power. War doesn't do this, because whoever beats Britain is going to be the big naval power (extremely unlikely to be Germany; bear in mind Britains naval power was HUGE in the 19th century; even at Jutland it wasn't the whole British fleet).

The best way is either:

massive economic collapse in Britain, but that would have a knock on effect on their trading partners, including Germany

or Britain either loses or never had the empire (the primary reason for the navy)

My money would be on imperialism and expansionism never happening, by any European power, not just Britain. In fact, I would have Britain never existing (the Union of 1707 never takes place) as a United British Isles is always going to be the big player.

I would have Europe as still a bunch of absolute or possibly constitutional monarchies, with Germany as the biggest player in a weak tournament. The German Kaiser (or whatever) of circa 1900 is a sailing nut, and wants a big fleet (perhaps this is what kick starts imperialism). I would reckon that technology would be behind ours; they're probably still using sailing ships.

It's a real stretch. The problem for the Germans is the same one the Japanese had. They turned up to the party too late. They're also just about the only major European power without a serious centuries-old naval historical tradition; at least one that matches up to their army.
 
This is really a great challenge:
1. there's no realistic chance Germany can fully defeat the British or the US and therefore enforce fleet limitations which ensure German supremacy.
2. if in whatever war the Germans sent the British and/or US fleet to the bottom, this would not imply Germany ruling the waves I'd say, since it would be only a matter of time until the British/US rebuild.
3. in its domestic waters, Germany only faces the British and the Russians. Considering the Russians, no side will concentrate on its baltic fleet very much, which leaves the British as the only naval adversary. Now whereas Germany might have a Hochseeflotte that surpasses what the British have in the North sea - or, let's say, in their home waters - the British will have significant parts elsewhere in the world. The point here is that Germany does not need a large navy - unless Germany owns a vast colonial Empire which needs protection and international power projection.

So, to conclude, I'd say we'd need quite an early POD which grants Germany a vast colonial Empire which requires naval protection and a secured situation on the continent which allows for vast investment into the navy. If Germany dominates the continent, it has the ability and industrial capacity to outbuild the British. Furthermore, if Germany dominates the continent, the navy indeed becomes the major tool of global power projection. If it has a large colonial Empire, it has the need to do so. I'd say this requires a POD well before 1900, it probably even requires earlier German unification and earlier German colonialism.
 

Blair152

Banned
As the title says, have the Germans be the worlds premier Navy by 1920. You can have a WWI or a TL where we avoided it.

Heres one example, due to signaling errors (seen in OTL), the QE Dreadnaughts are unable to come up and support Beatty's BC at Jutland, leading to the destruction of the BC's when the HSF arrives and both the QE's and Admiral Hood's squadron arrive and are defeated in detail by the HSF before the main body of the Grand Fleet arrives and sufferes heavily.
You'll need a POD where the Kaiserreichmarine swept the Royal Navy from the seas. That would mean that by 1914, the Kaiserreichmarine, (German
Imperial Navy), would have basically achieved parity, bordering on superiority, with, or over, the Royal Navy. OTL, Germany was a minor annoyance. Compared to the United States, which was Britain's main rival for control of the seas, Germany didn't have the ships, or men, to wrest control of the seas from the Royal Navy. Germany had no experience as a
naval power. The North German Confederation Navy, the navy prior to the
unification of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm I, was little more than a Coast Guard. It wasn't until the 1880s and '90s, that men like Tirpitz urged the Kaiser to build a navy that would be strong enough to sweep the Royal Navy aside. The HSF almost did it. Of course, if you go this way, you'll need to have something bad happen to the Royal Navy. For example,
a mutiny, the Royal Navy losing the battles of Dogger Bank, Heilogland Bight, the Falklands, and most importantly, Jutland. Which was the last time the line of battle was formed in European waters.
 

Ak-84

Banned
There is one thing to remember. The Germans were far from a "minor annoyance" at least in WWI. Their ships, training and tactics were as seen at Jutland superior to the British. I do think that if the Germans were able to concentrate more resources to their Navy then you could definatly see her wrest control from the UK, all the basics were there.

Lets remember the German advantages in the 1900-1918 era were the same that the British had for most of history.
 
There is one thing to remember. The Germans were far from a "minor annoyance" at least in WWI. Their ships, training and tactics were as seen at Jutland superior to the British. I do think that if the Germans were able to concentrate more resources to their Navy then you could definatly see her wrest control from the UK, all the basics were there.

Lets remember the German advantages in the 1900-1918 era were the same that the British had for most of history.

Even if the Germans win at Jutland (which is a pretty big if; they were outnumbered), and if in that battle the British fleet is decimated somehow, it still leaves the US (and the British would simply build another fleet, and probably learn from its mistakes at Jutland).

And if the Germans put more resources into the navy, they lose the land war. Germany has the same problem in both World Wars: they don't have the manpower or resources to do all the things they try to do.

If this is to happen, it's got to be way before WW1. And it would have to be a major change in history, not just winning a battle or even a war, but a seismic shift.
 
The only realistic option to reach this situation is a general German victory in the Great War on land and at sea, not only one of them, as the UK as a whole had to be beaten in this scenario (as well as all other allies naturally).

This could German win could be theoretically won by starving the UK to the negotiationtable by the unrestricted U-Boote campaign as well as keeping up the presure on the Western Front. This presure would demand more supplies shipped from oversea to the front, which in itself was countered by the unrestricted submarinewarfare. Both France and the UK needed those supplies badly, as did the US forces later in the war, when ariving at the front finally.

Since these supplies had to come from Britain mainly, as this was closest to the Western Front and took the shortes route, it was the easiest to blockade. Shipping supplies and men to Southern France first took too much time, which was at a disadvantage for the Allies. So no big navalbattles and no losses in warships other than small combatants and U-Boote at best for Germany, while the Allies might loose an occasional battleship to a U-Boot. The Hochseeflotte would likely have to remain as a fleet in beeing inside its port, while the offensive on land and by the U-Boote was the priority.

Naturally the Royal Navy would not be delivered to Germany as in the OTL the visa versa happened with the Hochsee Flotte, but politically the loss of the Fleet for Brtiain would lead to German superiority at sea, since the USN still was not a force it was later to become and perhaps even never would, due to the possibility of severe damage to its own shipping, when Germany would continue to wage war against the USA and blockading its ports with a U-Boote fleet. With no commercial shipping the USA woudl certainly be affected and propably try to end the war it no longer could win on its own, due to lack of bases in Europe.

After such a strategic win, Germany was in a good possition to dictate its demands on worldaffairs, including a forced reduction of likely opponents at sea or on land.
 
The only realistic option to reach this situation is a general German victory in the Great War on land and at sea, not only one of them, as the UK as a whole had to be beaten in this scenario (as well as all other allies naturally).

This could German win could be theoretically won by starving the UK to the negotiationtable by the unrestricted U-Boote campaign as well as keeping up the presure on the Western Front. This presure would demand more supplies shipped from oversea to the front, which in itself was countered by the unrestricted submarinewarfare. Both France and the UK needed those supplies badly, as did the US forces later in the war, when ariving at the front finally.

Since these supplies had to come from Britain mainly, as this was closest to the Western Front and took the shortes route, it was the easiest to blockade. Shipping supplies and men to Southern France first took too much time, which was at a disadvantage for the Allies. So no big navalbattles and no losses in warships other than small combatants and U-Boote at best for Germany, while the Allies might loose an occasional battleship to a U-Boot. The Hochseeflotte would likely have to remain as a fleet in beeing inside its port, while the offensive on land and by the U-Boote was the priority.

Naturally the Royal Navy would not be delivered to Germany as in the OTL the visa versa happened with the Hochsee Flotte, but politically the loss of the Fleet for Brtiain would lead to German superiority at sea, since the USN still was not a force it was later to become and perhaps even never would, due to the possibility of severe damage to its own shipping, when Germany would continue to wage war against the USA and blockading its ports with a U-Boote fleet. With no commercial shipping the USA woudl certainly be affected and propably try to end the war it no longer could win on its own, due to lack of bases in Europe.

After such a strategic win, Germany was in a good possition to dictate its demands on worldaffairs, including a forced reduction of likely opponents at sea or on land.

While the U-boats were trying to blockade Britain (for which they need a lot more U-boats much earlier to succeed), Britain and France were blockading Germany's ports, much more successfully.
 

Teleology

Banned
I'd go for a pre-1900 divergence. The Netherlands parlays it's great wealth in terms of coal into keeping it's Age of Sail naval dominance into the industrial revolution period, unlike OTL. This won't last forever, but by the time the Benelux Great Power is about done the Germanies unify and give their North European fellows the economic might needed to continue on as before.

Eventual unification of portions of Northern Europe with Germany follows.
 
First, Britain never forms. England and Scotland are angry room-mates that go to war every decade or two.

Then maybe you could have Prussia annex Denmark, and after defeating France in the Franco-Prussian War, have France hand over all its navy to the newly formed Germany.

Then have the German industry focus on naval armament.
 
The timeframe is too short, but the premise is far from impossible especially if you specify which waves Germany rules. Mackinders idea that a great continental power will be able to marshall so many resources that it can build a navy superior to traditional naval powers has been borne out by history. Continental Germany within 20 years built up the worlds 2nd most powerful navy of the era, the worlds largest navy of the last 70 years is maintianed by the continental superpower USA, and the USSR built up a very powerful navy during the Cold War.

So a Germany that wins WW1 will by default remain the world 2nd most powerful navy until the USN building programme come to fruition. But in victory, especially one where the navy had some success, the German navy may be able to transcend its geographical limitations by gaining bases in the Med and outside of Europe. With extra territory and resources of economic sattelites it will be able to continue building the heavy fleet to rival Britain's and easily overawe France, Italy and Russia.
 
Divergent

If the US instead of joining the England and France joins the Central Powers. The great sea battles between the US and England results in the German fleet being the largest survivor after the Central Powers victory.
 
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