Challenge: German Unification Before 1820

Well, the Kleindeutsch/Großdeutsch discussion among German nationalists began more or less immidatly after the Vienna Congress, so I would say both options would be in keeping with the times. Though of course back then you would be looked queerly at for suggesting Austrians to not be Germans - even the proponents of the Kleindeutsche solution, and even the reactionary conservatives, thought so, but to the latter ones that made no difference and the former ones simply thought the kleindeutsche Solution to be more realistic.

An old warhorse of mine is Bismarck saying, after the unification, "Trieste is Germany's only port on the southern seas."

I somtimes get the matter of Bavarians, Austrians, and human beings by way of riposte from Germanoskeptics, but to them I merely say "Ask Susano about Rhineland-Pfalz".

well, how bout a greater pan-German nationalist sentiment arising from the BEFREIUNGSKRIEG against Napoleon in 1813 ?

There was a lot of sentiment going around. Everyone from Friedrich Wilhelm to Fichte was in on it in 1813 itself. You've got the coalition's declaration to the German people, the exploits of Stein, and the appearance of the world "Fatherland" on Prussian banners. It wasn't that there wasn't sentiment: it was denied and repressed at Vienna.
 
Why Germanization? You won't get a German speaking Italy either.

Because Italy was rich and urbanised and densely populated. There was also a large literate class. This makes it very hard to germanise it. Poland and Hungary were sparsely populated and mostly rural. This makes it easy to form new cities which are populated with germans and clear forest and fill the land with german peasants.
 
Why Germanization at all?

A united Germany is frankly big enough. I cannot see a Germanized Hungary by then (as opposed to the OTL-hungary with a large german minority in cities and on the countryside). Albeit under Habsburg rule, Hungary is still a kingdom and would rise as in 1848.

More so, we are in the time of nationalism on all sides. Prussia/Germany tried to Germanize the Polish population within its borders during the 19th century and met with little success.

Btw, what is the definition of "Western Poland" here???
 
Because Italy was rich and urbanised and densely populated. There was also a large literate class. This makes it very hard to germanise it. Poland and Hungary were sparsely populated and mostly rural. This makes it easy to form new cities which are populated with germans and clear forest and fill the land with german peasants.

Thus explaining why Lettland and Estland are integral parts of Germandom, clearly.

It's really a lot more complicated and circumstantial, and Eurofed is tremendously biased in favour of small nations being obliterated.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Because Italy was rich and urbanised and densely populated. There was also a large literate class. This makes it very hard to germanise it. Poland and Hungary were sparsely populated and mostly rural. This makes it easy to form new cities which are populated with germans and clear forest and fill the land with german peasants.

What Kalan said. Surely a centralized HRE becomes a bilingual German-Italian state, Germany and Italy would be too balanced demographically and economically within the HRE to prevail on each other, and Latin would rermain imperial lingua franca fro the Empire's ruling class up to modernity.

However, we may expect that at the very least Bohemia-Moravia becomes fully Germanized and Slovenia undergoes a mix of Germanization-Italianization, just like France was unified linguistically. A 700-years-long political unification surely means that the ruling and middle classes throughout the empire would be even much more deeply assimilated culturally, so the 19th century literary resurgence of Czech and Slovene would be butterflied out, they would remain peasant dialects and be gradually wiped out.

As it concerns eastward expansions of Germans into Poland and Hungary, and of Italians in the Balkans coast and the Mediterranean, it is reasonable to expect they would be more successful than OTL if backed by the one of the strongest states in Europe, even if the exact extent of the ethnic-cultural-linguistic borders is of course widely exposed to butterflies.

Anyway, it is quite possible and indeed likely that both Poland and Hungary-Croatia end up as vassals of the HRE, if not Habsburg-like personal unions.

A united Germany is frankly big enough. I cannot see a Germanized Hungary by then (as opposed to the OTL-hungary with a large german minority in cities and on the countryside). Albeit under Habsburg rule, Hungary is still a kingdom and would rise as in 1848.

Eastward expansion was very successful in the Middle Ages about Germanising the territory between Elbe and the Oder, and seeding Hungary with sizable German minorities. It is to be expected that with the backing of a strong centralised HRE, expansion in Hungary would be more successful than IOTL, even if I would expect that Poland would remain the preferential direction of expansion rather than Hungary. Maybe as it concerns Hungary, we may expect annexation to the HRE and full Germanization of Slovakia, which was an area of German settlement IOTL.

More so, we are in the time of nationalism on all sides. Prussia/Germany tried to Germanize the Polish population within its borders during the 19th century and met with little success.

Err, we are speaking about a 12th-13th century PoD here, centuries before nationalism. Ethnic-cultural identities were much more fluid back then.

Btw, what is the definition of "Western Poland" here???

I think that at the very least and/or in the early phase, we may expect Germanization of Greater Poland and Kuyavia, with the German-Polish ethnic-cultural-political border to be placed on the northern Vistula-Warta line. Additionally and/or Later, with the Germanization of Prussia and further spreading into Masovia and the Lodz region, we may also expect the German-Polish border to resemble the Prussian one after the Second or Third partition of Poland. Let's say the Niemen-Narew-Vistula-Pilica Line. TTL core Poland would essentially become Lesser Poland, and be forced to expand eastward, towards Galicia-Volhynia, if any.

It is also reasonable to expect full Italianization of Istria and Dalmatia. As it concerns the Italian half of the Empire, its most likely direction of expansion besides the Balkan coast would probably be "reconquest" of North Africa, as part of the Crusades, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya.

By the way, with a strong HRE at the core of Europe, we may also expect that the late Crusades would be much more successful, so the Latin Empire, the Crusader states in Syria and Palestine, and Crusader conquest of Egypt could easily all be successful, at least temporarily. Of course, further developments are exposed to wide butterflies, the Latin Empire might easily be rejected by the Greek population and the Crusader states to be crushed by later Arab resurgence. OTOH, it is also possible that this could butterfly away the Arab/Islamic conquest of Anatolia, Greece, and the Balkans, and/or lead to the (partial) re-Christianization of Syria, Palestine, and Egypt (whose "native" Christian communities still were sizable in the Middle Ages, btw). Surely, even if butterflies smooth out the effects of more successful late Crusades, and the later history of the Middle East mostly plays out as IOTL, a strong centralized HRE would represent a powerful bulwark against Ottoman penetration in the Balkans.

As it concerns France, at the very least we may expect that French expansion in Alsace, Lorraine, Nice, Savoy, Corsica, and Franche-Comte would be stopped, whileas Artois, Flanders, Picardy, Champagne, Burgundy, Dauphine, and Provence could all become contested areas between France and HRE to some extent. Of course, the success of those contests, besides the usual abundant military and dynastic butterflies, would depend on the effects of HRE centralization on French nation-building as well. It is possible that it remains largely unaffected, but it is also possible that HRE interference combined with Angevin-English encroachment wrecks French unification, and switches the historical fates of France and Germany-italy. It is also possible, hwoever, that it prompts the success of Angevin and Plantagenet attempts to unify France and the British Isles in the same empire, which would give the HRE its worthy peer in Europe.
 

Susano

Banned
An old warhorse of mine is Bismarck saying, after the unification, "Trieste is Germany's only port on the southern seas."

I somtimes get the matter of Bavarians, Austrians, and human beings by way of riposte from Germanoskeptics, but to them I merely say "Ask Susano about Rhineland-Pfalz".
:D :D :D
My Dragoons will soon assembly in Wiesbaden to retake Mainz ;)
(And its not as if it isnt the same in the USA. Cant tell how often the Toledo Strip has come up here, also in NPC, but of course it helps that we have 430503475 Michiganites on the board)


Anyways, why are we talking about the Staufens and the East Settlment and what not? I agree that without the Magyars appearing, the East Settlment, carried in this case by Bavaria (IOTL it was more or less exclusively carried by Saxony) would most have left the Pannonian plain German speaking, but thats irrelevant - the specified PoD range is 1780 to 1820.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Thus explaining why Lettland and Estland are integral parts of Germandom, clearly.

It's really a lot more complicated and circumstantial,

Very true, military and dynastic butterflies play a large role here, even if we may reason out about the most likely outcome from the political-military-economic effects of a Honenstaufen centralized empire. E.g. it is reasonable to expect a more successful Germanization of Prussia and the Baltic coast.

and Eurofed is tremendously biased in favour of small nations being obliterated.

Such "bias", as you calls it, essentially consists in focusing my AH attention and efforts on plausible PoDs and butteflies that foster big imperial blobs (that uplift and cheer me up) and smother national(istic) Balkanization (which depresses and angers me). The problem with this being ?
 

Eurofed

Banned
Anyways, why are we talking about the Staufens and the East Settlment and what not? I agree that without the Magyars appearing, the East Settlment, carried in this case by Bavaria (IOTL it was more or less exclusively carried by Saxony) would most have left the Pannonian plain German speaking, but thats irrelevant - the specified PoD range is 1780 to 1820.

I supposed the PoD was "before 1820", without limits. :confused:

If it is strictly 1780-1820, I apologize for propping up the Staufen PoD (which would deserve its own thread, then) :eek:, and point back to my 1814 PoD.
 

Susano

Banned
More so, we are in the time of nationalism on all sides. Prussia/Germany tried to Germanize the Polish population within its borders during the 19th century and met with little success.
Of course, they also didnt try all that hard as is often presented. Their settlement policies were a joke for example.

Oh and minor quibble to Habsburg, itw as only the HRE from Barbarossa onwards :p And the German Kingdom of course predates 962, too - you can start from 919 or even from 843...
 
Very true, military and dynastic butterflies play a large role here, even if we may reason out about the most likely outcome from the political-military-economic effects of a Honenstaufen centralized empire. E.g. it is reasonable to expect a more successful Germanization of Prussia and the Baltic coast.

Why? I don't actually see a reason. Estonia and Latvia are still there, after many centuries of all economic, political, religious, and scholarly existence being German (they were still "the German Baltic" as far as we were concerned until the 1850s, I know that much). What's the differances between Hohenstaufens and Grand-masters/Vasas/Romanovs for these purposes? None of them have any interest in what the plebs speak.

Such "bias", as you calls it, essentially consists in focusing my AH attention and efforts on plausible PoDs and butteflies that foster big imperial blobs (that uplift and cheer me up) and smother national(istic) Balkanization (which depresses and angers me). The problem with this being ?

1) If it should alter your perceptions of what likley outcomes actually are, which we've seen plenty of.

2) Some of us rather like small countries.
 

Susano

Banned
Why? I don't actually see a reason. Estonia and Latvia are still there, after many centuries of all economic, political, religious, and scholarly existence being German (they were still "the German Baltic" as far as we were concerned until the 1850s, I know that much). What's the differances between Hohenstaufens and Grand-masters/Vasas/Romanovs for these purposes? None of them have any interest in what the plebs speak.
True. They only thing they had an interest in was Christianisation, and oh of course getting to rule those lands ;). Settlement of people was merely a way to reach that, and lingual/national assimilation simply a side effect.

To expand for Eurofed, basically, in the East Settlement you had four possibilities: The East Albian lands, which only slowly christiansied, and to reinforce and secure that process more an dmore settlers were sent, which caused the resident pagan Slavs to assimilate over the centuries (virtually over centuries - the Sorbian language is only dying out these days, despite efforts to protect it, and the Sorbs are the very last remnaints of those East Elbian slavs, and their area was greater in any past century...). Or you had it like it in Silesia where the existing population was basically swamped by a huge settlement move. Or third as in Prussia (genocide and German resettlment) or fourth as in Livonia - such quick success in Christianisation that any settlement of people simply wasnt needed. So the conclusion Id draw is that unless a ruler sends in huge numbers of settlers the lingual/national/ethnic makeup of a region simply wont be greatly changed because state offices alone are not capable until the 20th century (with TV, telecommunication, greater rate of people moving etc) to by themselves assimilate large areas simply by language policies and what not.

Of course, I may be arguing right into Hurgans position right now, but then I do maintain that at the very latest after, oh, one or two centuries ;) the "settlers" certainly cant be called such anymore....


2) Some of us rather like small countries.
I definitly agree.
 
(genocide and German resettlment)

Genocide, of course, is a tricky word, but I don't think the means of the end existed in the middle ages. "Lots of people die as a result of the crusade", yeah, but genocide? There were still Baltic pockets for a while, weren't there?

Of course, I may be arguing right into Hurgans position right now, but then I do maintain that at the very latest after, oh, one or two centuries ;) the "settlers" certainly cant be called such anymore....

I'd put it at one generation. Nobody chooses where to be born, so one can't really blame people for being born to colonists. Or do you mean that's the time it takes for a settler population to be considered "the natives"? That sounds about right.

I definitly agree.

Balkanise everything! Pwahahaha!
 

Susano

Banned
Genocide, of course, is a tricky word, but I don't think the means of the end existed in the middle ages. "Lots of people die as a result of the crusade", yeah, but genocide? There were still Baltic pockets for a while, weren't there?
Well, it were very much targetted mass killings Id say. Of course, the targeted group was defined in religious, not in national/lingual terms, but thats usually called genocide, too. That Baltci Prussians as a people survived this in little pockets for further centuries is due to them having converted and of course the, ah, insufficient means of the middle ages. And of course it wasnt called that back then, but well, Im mostly a moral absolutist, and hence do apply our standars everywhere and everywhen :p

I'd put it at one generation. Nobody chooses where to be born, so one can't really blame people for being born to colonists. Or do you mean that's the time it takes for a settler population to be considered "the natives"? That sounds about right.
Of course for obvious reasons Im a bit uncomfortable with one generation or even two ;) But of course that topic Im hinting at is also a wee bit more complex than just such a little terminology...

Balkanise everything! Pwahahaha!
And start with India and China!
I guess ideally the USA, too, but thats just so much more difficult, at least when talking about nations instead of countries ;)
 
Well, it were very much targetted mass killings Id say. Of course, the targeted group was defined in religious, not in national/lingual terms, but thats usually called genocide, too. That Baltci Prussians as a people survived this in little pockets for further centuries is due to them having converted and of course the, ah, insufficient means of the middle ages. And of course it wasnt called that back then, but well, Im mostly a moral absolutist, and hence do apply our standars everywhere and everywhen :p

Morality is absolute, or it isn't anything, wot!

Of course for obvious reasons Im a bit uncomfortable with one generation or even two ;) But of course that topic Im hinting at is also a wee bit more complex than just such a little terminology...

Not really following you there...


And start with India and China!
I guess ideally the USA, too, but thats just so much more difficult, at least when talking about nations instead of countries ;)

My ideal for the world is actually large and tolerant states with lots of regional autonomy for regions and cultural autonomy for nations, on the modernised Austrian-Ottoman model, with peace kept by democracy. Self-determination is my guiding light, though.
 

Eurofed

Banned
My ideal for the world is actually large and tolerant states with lots of regional autonomy for regions and cultural autonomy for nations, on the modernised Austrian-Ottoman model, with peace kept by democracy.

No real disgreement here. My loathing is for the two-hundred-states political landscape.

Self-determination is my guiding light, though.

However, if in a TL the seeds of some OTL surviving nations/cultures are, by the standards of the time painlessly, assimilated into a greater whole in premodern times, before national self-determination gets even born as a concept, where's the harm ? OTL world has demonstrably gone on fine without living Osci and Canaanite cultures.
 

Eurofed

Banned
To expand for Eurofed, basically, in the East Settlement you had four possibilities: The East Albian lands, which only slowly christiansied, and to reinforce and secure that process more an dmore settlers were sent, which caused the resident pagan Slavs to assimilate over the centuries (virtually over centuries - the Sorbian language is only dying out these days, despite efforts to protect it, and the Sorbs are the very last remnaints of those East Elbian slavs, and their area was greater in any past century...).

Probably what would happen to Bohemia-Moravia and Slovenia in a Staufen successful TL.

Or you had it like it in Silesia where the existing population was basically swamped by a huge settlement move.

What would likely happen to western Poland (Greater Poland, Kuyavia, Lodz) in such a TL.

Or third as in Prussia (genocide and German resettlment)

And here OTL history would most likely repeat itself ITTL as well.

or fourth as in Livonia - such quick success in Christianisation that any settlement of people simply wasnt needed.

Conceded that here too OTL history might repeat itself.

So the conclusion Id draw is that unless a ruler sends in huge numbers of settlers the lingual/national/ethnic makeup of a region simply wont be greatly changed because state offices alone are not capable until the 20th century (with TV, telecommunication, greater rate of people moving etc) to by themselves assimilate large areas simply by language policies and what not.

Conceded, but there is also the Occitan analogy. Some languages/cultures that end up as a minority in a strong centralized state with 1-2 dominant cultures could just simply be smothered out.
 
Thus explaining why Lettland and Estland are integral parts of Germandom, clearly.

No but it does explain why the Czechs succesfully resisted the ostsiedlung while silesia and pomerania were completly assimilated. It also explains why the original prussians are gone (altough in this case it was more a genocide than simple settlement). The reason why Lettland and Estland weren't germanised was that a) they were to far away and there were nearer places to go and b) that the black death ended the ostsiedlung.
 
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