Challenge: German Unification Before 1820

[Condottiere]

The title says it all. I've been reading a lot of the stuff lately, and it got me to thinking. What if the Germans were able to consolidate and groom a complete German state before 1820? I mean how could the German people have united in such a short time? The POD would be 1780, if that helps anything.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

At this point, probably not. The 30 years war really wrecked any chance of a unified German state. The best option would be around the year 1000 with the Hohenstaufens. If they had not died out and left a hereditary monarchy, you could have had a centralized monarchy in Germany (plus some bits of the empire like Bohemia and Morovia) that was similar to France's. Italy would probably break off at some point, but if the nation became purely German, then that would not be a bad thing in the long run as Germany develops and Italy peaks during the Renaissance. Afterward the Italians decline while Germany achieves dominance as the central state of Europe, probably expanding Eastward, taking their brand of religion with them.

 

[Nicksplace27]

Easy, have the senate of the Confederation of the Rhine meet for a few times and watch the German nationalism fliter in....

 

[Faeelin]

At this point, probably not. The 30 years war really wrecked any chance of a unified German state.

Mmm. And yet the Reichstag still met in the 1790s, and there was an Imperial High Command.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

The POD would be 1780

That's a bit close, but there is still a wide variety of possibilites.
For instances, with your PoD it is still possible to get rid of the French revolution
and a figure of any significance called Napoleon. This makes it plausible that
the 'Roman' Empire lives on.

In case you don't want to meddle too much with France in your TL,
or if the Empire does not count as 'united', you need more effective and more
powerful institutions. Although it does not seem simple to solve problems in four
decades which had been neglected for four centuries,
I still see the chance of it. Look at comprehensive reform of 1803:
Something along these lines might have both prolonged the lifetime of the Empire
and enhanced its functions. And by that I do not refer to mediatization and secularizaition,
but to adaption of the stuctures to the current relation of power (rather than
that of 1400), and codification of "general rules" of the interrelationship of the states.

The reform drowned in the political and military flood originating from France.
In other words, it was just a couple of years too late.
With your PoD in 1780, there's plenty of time to set the right course.

One might argue that the reform only took place due to enormous pressure and threats
from France. This is of course true; but again, there are many options to create
strong, but not as defeating pressure on the German princes to enforce structural improvements.

The 30 years war really wrecked any chance of a unified German state.

No it didn't. True, it wrecked the outlook of the Emperor to gain direct control of Germany
as a whole, as had been the Habsburgs' dream. But a functioning and strong Empire does not
imply that the Emperor is as strong a figure as the kings of Spain or France were.

Of course, such a reform, which even increases the influence of the princes (even though
collectively), is only possible when the Emperor is in an extremely weak position.
(Even weaker than in 1648, relative to his adversaries. In 1806, he was.)

 

[rcduggan]

Mmm. And yet the Reichstag still met in the 1790s, and there was an Imperial High Command.

But at that point most who bothered to attend the Reichstag were firmly committed to maintaining the German liberties, IE freedom for all the princely states of the HRE, as little interference by the emperor as possible, etc. They did not want any form of united Germany that could threaten their independent power.

There is a way to "unite" Germany, although in more of a confederation than an actual government. Just have the Furstenbund of Frederick II be more successful. It was formed to reform the HRE, and if given the chance to do so would bind the states closer together in a confederation with at least some central power. This would happen at some point in the 1790s or early 1800s (another POD would have to be no French Revolution though).

 

[Kabraloth]

You might get something during an alt-congress of Vienna. It won't be a centralized state like France yet, but it could be stronger, more democratic empire.
Those plans did exist OTL, but the larger powers were against them (even though the lack of change in a future imperial structure was one of the reasons why the empire wasn't simply reestablished).

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

You might get something during an alt-congress of Vienna. It won't be a centralized state like France yet, but it could be stronger, more democratic empire.
Those plans did exist OTL

"More democratic" does not refer to "planned by the Congress", I suppose?

 

[oberdada]

Napoleon unified Germany, all of it was under his fist.

Isn't that enough?

 

[freivolk]

Get Napoleon killed at the battle of Aspen in1809. In this case Austria will be seen as the great "Liberator" of Germany. Good chance, that the HRE get reestablished.

 

[Susano]

Uh, in any timeframe before 1806, the proper term would not be "unified", but "centralised", as nominally Germany was united as HRE - for whatever thast wrth, but as said, officially.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Napoleon unified Germany, all of it was under his fist.

Isn't that enough?

It was hardly unified though, I mean the Rhineland was under direct French rule, the Confederation of the Rhine was rather loose, as far as I know, dominated by Bavaria and Bonaparte ruled Westphalia, Prussia and Austria were just biding their time until the next round of coalitioning and British subsidies.

So, yeah, hardly unified, except in a common market of sorts. Which was true of a large part of Europe.

 

[Condottiere]

Napoleon unified Germany, all of it was under his fist.

Isn't that enough?

By my understanding, Napoleon actually fueled German Nationalism, what with the way he treated all German states while he was in power. Probably gave a semblance of unity to the German people.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Are we counting Austria as part of a "unified Germany"? Because that has a big impact on what we're lookin' at here.

 

[Susano]

Are we counting Austria as part of a "unified Germany"? Because that has a big impact on what we're lookin' at here.

Well, the Kleindeutsch/Großdeutsch discussion among German nationalists began more or less immidatly after the Vienna Congress, so I would say both options would be in keeping with the times. Though of course back then you would be looked queerly at for suggesting Austrians to not be Germans - even the proponents of the Kleindeutsche solution, and even the reactionary conservatives, thought so, but to the latter ones that made no difference and the former ones simply thought the kleindeutsche Solution to be more realistic.

 

[Condottiere]

Are we counting Austria as part of a "unified Germany"? Because that has a big impact on what we're lookin' at here.

No, we're only talking about Kleindeutsche Lösung.

EDIT: As Susano said, the a Lesser Germany is more realistic during the time period.

 

[Hapsburg]

Well, technically, it was unified before 1820.
As the HRE from 962 to 1806, and then the German Confederation onwards.
As Susano said, the word you are looking for is "centralised", which happened at different periods to different degrees in Germany anyway.

 

[Eurofed]

Well, even if full unification happens after 1820, my "united states of the Americas" TL includes a 1814 PoD which creates unified Grossdeutchsland in the early 1830s. PoD is war erupting between Prussia, Russia, and Naples vs. Britain, Austria, and France in late 1814 over the Saxony-Poland plan. Soon after the war starts, Napoleon comes back, turning the war into a three-way conflict, which dooms Austria. Napoleon bitchslaps Britain at Waterloo, is later beaten by overwhelming Prussian-Russian numbers. Prussia gains Saxony, Hanover, Rhineland-Westphalia, and Bohemia-Moravia. Austria loses also Galicia and Bukovina to Russia and Lombardy-Veneto to Naples. Prussia becomes the hegemon of Germany and creates North German Federation. Later the 1830s revolutions cause the collapse of the Habsburg empire and the unifications of Greater Germany and Greater Italy.

 

[Eurofed]

The best option would be around the year 1000 with the Hohenstaufens.

True, although the dynasty got its real chance with Frederick I Barbarossa and Henry VI in late 12th century. Have both of them be more successful and longeve, and you can have a centralized hereditary HRE by mid-late 13th century.

If they had not died out and left a hereditary monarchy, you could have had a centralized monarchy in Germany (plus some bits of the empire like Bohemia and Morovia) that was similar to France's.

True, although the empire would span Greater Germany, Bohemia-Moravia, Switzerland, most of the Low Countries, northern Italy, and after Barbarossa, southern Italy as well.

Italy would probably break off at some point, but if the nation became purely German,

Untrue, a PoD that makes the Hohnestaufen more succesful in Germany alsmost surely makes them so in Italy as well, so Italy stays in. This hardly harms Germany however, northern Italy was one of the wealthiest areas of the HRE.

then that would not be a bad thing in the long run as Germany develops and Italy peaks during the Renaissance. Afterward the Italians decline while Germany achieves dominance as the central state of Europe, probably expanding Eastward, taking their brand of religion with them.

Political disunity and becoming a battlefield between France and Spain was one of the main causes of Italy's decline, if it stays safe and united in the bosom of the empire, such decline is butterflied away. However, a centralized German-Italian empire would surely be the dominant state of Europe (unless the parallel unification of France and Britain succeeds as well). It is correct that a centralized HRE would make German Eastward expansion even more successful. We may most likely up to Germanization of Western Poland, and quite possibly Western Hungary and most of Croatia. Germany's boundary at Warsaw and Budapest, say.

 

[Melvin Loh]

well, how bout a greater pan-German nationalist sentiment arising from the BEFREIUNGSKRIEG against Napoleon in 1813 ?