Challenge: Este inherited by Hannover

Susano

Banned
The Houses of Este (ruling Modena, and Ferrara for a time) and Welf (ruling Hannover, Brunswick, and the UK for a time, of course) are essentially the same House, with the split occuring in, IIRC, the 11th century. That is something I always found way cool, especially as Este-Welf has such a distinguished history anyways. IOTL, when Este died out at the end of the 18th century, it was inherited by marriage by Habsburg, with the sidelien Habsburg-Este establishing itself.

So, the challenge is to have Este die out anywhere between the late 16th and early 19th century, and have, despite geographcial distance and different denominations, Hannover inherit its domains, due to that century old connection. That, IMO, would be kinda cool, but is it any possible?
 

Philip

Donor
Great idea, though I don't know how to implement it. It seems to me that other houses would make claims based on marriages since the time of the split.

Any chance this could result in Northern Italy remaining in the Empire longer?
 
Just an idea I had (very unlikely, of course, but it could be a start):

In 1597, when the legitimate line of the House of Este died out, the Emperor accepted the inheritance of Modena and Reggio going to Cesare D'Este, a cousin of the last duke who was born out of wedlock (or was his father who was considered a bastard, can't remember now). However, Ferrara was a Papal fief, and the Pope didn't accept that, annexing the duchy to the Papal states.

The POD here is that the Emperor doesn't accept Cesare as Duke of Modena and Reggio due to his illegitimacy. Theoretically the most senior claim (through Anna d'Este, eldest daughter of Ercole II and sister of the last duke, Alfonso II) should fall to Charles, Duke of Guise (grandson of Anna). However, he was French, and could increase French influence in North Italy. So the Emperor decides that the succession in Modena and Reggio will follow a very strict interpretation of the Salic Law, and with the Italian branch of the Welfs extinct the territories they owned should go to the German Welfs*.

This idea has a problem though: by that time all the remaining Welfs in the HRE were Protestant. So, in order to receive the Este's lands, one of the princes from the German branch must convert to Catholicism. The Pope realizes that this way the Catholic faith could regain some lands in Northern Germany (as cuius regius eius religius was still the law in the HRE) and offers to accept the inheritance of Ferrara to the Welf prince that accepts to convert. Ferrara was one of the richest duchies of Northern Italy, and surely would be a prize worth a mass to someone more interested in money than in faith.

I don't know who could be the candidate that would accept such proposal. Maybe Susano can have better information about this, but around 1597 how many divisions the German Welfs had (Luneburg, Celle, Wolfenbuttel, Brunswick, ...)? And who could be a good candidate for this? I imagine that the most powerful of their lines wouldn't accept such deal, but maybe some younger son with less inheritance could think about the idea. And eventually the other lines of the Welfs could also die out, increasing the territory of the converted line. What do you think?

*Of course, to accept that we need not to take into consideration that Modena, Reggio and Ferrara weren't originally Welf lands in Italy. The Welfs owned lands in Lombardy (they were margraves of Milan for some time), including the castle of Este, near Padua, from where the name of Italian branch comes from. Then in the 12th century there was a division of the lands, and Welf IV, the eldest son of Albert Azzo II, Margrave of Milan, moved to Germany to receive the lands of maternal relatives in Bavaria, starting the German branch. The youngest son, Fulco I, remained in Italy and owned their Italian lands. Ferrara was only added to their domains later in that century through marriage, while Modena and Reggion were acquired in the 13th century. But the Emperor and the Pope, being who they were, could skip these technicalities and confirm the possession of these lands to the German branch (that, after all, was the senior branch of the House anyway).
 

Susano

Banned
I dunno if by 1597 there were still all 4 Brunswick lines alive, or if they were down to 3 already, but in any case, all were protestant. The Schmalkaldic League fought some wars there, so by the 1530s things wouldve been easier chanegable, but even so maybe one of them is pragmatic enough to change religion. Of course, in 1597 Germany still operates by the Augsburg Religious Peace, not the Westphalian Treaties, that is "eius regio, cuius religio". If that is enforced that could have major cosnequences in Germany, too - though if its a pragmatic conversion only, the Welf Convert might forego that privilege of his.

Hrm. Looking at Wiki its unbelivable how many protestant bishoprics the Welfs possesse,d either a stitulatory bishops or adjutcators... Now, it seems Henry Julius, ruling Wolfenbüttel, Calenberg and Grubenhagen (so it seems they were indeed down to 2 lines at that time) was a close advisor to the Emperor nontheless. OTOH, and, very conviniently, he is in a succession dispute with the other line, Lüneburg, about Grubenhagen. IOTL, Lüneburg won the dispute before the Imperial Court - of course, only in the next generation, so only Henrys son had to cede the land :D But as I undertsand it in 1597 the suit was already on going. So that could be a motivation for him to go to Italy - he gains Modena, Lüneburg gains Grubenhagen. And as said, he seems to have been chummy enough with the Emperor... I dunno if hed convert, but maybe either he does, or the Emperor just hadnwaves that problem away...
 

Thande

Donor
If I may put on my national chauvinist hat for a moment, this would be very interesting if it happened during the late 18th century when Hanover was in union with Great Britain and European wars were breaking out every five minutes.

Whereas Hanover itself was viewed as something of a tiresome appendage by everyone in Britain except the King (i.e., British foreign policy in Europe was structured around forming alliances with Austria or Prussia in order to safeguard vulnerable Hanover, rather than Hanover being a base for proactive foreign policy in the wider continent) I suspect royal possession of Modena would be of great interest to the British establishment. English and British trade involvement in that part of Italy was long-established and became very important in this time - when Napoleon's Continental System stopped Leghorn (Livorno) in Tuscany trading with Britain, for instance, its economy pretty much collapsed. I know the Duchy of Modena had a bit of coastline, but did it have a port that could have been developed for British trade?

Of course it would also give Britain another awkward continental ally to have to construct alliances around to defend (the Diplomatic Revolution could cause serious problems, what with Hapsburg Tuscany), but I think most British politicians would consider Modena much more worth defending than Hanover.
 

Susano

Banned
I know the Duchy of Modena had a bit of coastline, but did it have a port that could have been developed for British trade?

La Massa. Which, like Reggio, was technically an own territory, but you know how those things worked in continental Europe, Prussia and Austria were collections of techncially seperate territories as well...
 
I dunno if by 1597 there were still all 4 Brunswick lines alive, or if they were down to 3 already, but in any case, all were protestant. The Schmalkaldic League fought some wars there, so by the 1530s things wouldve been easier chanegable, but even so maybe one of them is pragmatic enough to change religion. Of course, in 1597 Germany still operates by the Augsburg Religious Peace, not the Westphalian Treaties, that is "eius regio, cuius religio". If that is enforced that could have major cosnequences in Germany, too - though if its a pragmatic conversion only, the Welf Convert might forego that privilege of his.

Hrm. Looking at Wiki its unbelivable how many protestant bishoprics the Welfs possesse,d either a stitulatory bishops or adjutcators... Now, it seems Henry Julius, ruling Wolfenbüttel, Calenberg and Grubenhagen (so it seems they were indeed down to 2 lines at that time) was a close advisor to the Emperor nontheless. OTOH, and, very conviniently, he is in a succession dispute with the other line, Lüneburg, about Grubenhagen. IOTL, Lüneburg won the dispute before the Imperial Court - of course, only in the next generation, so only Henrys son had to cede the land :D But as I undertsand it in 1597 the suit was already on going. So that could be a motivation for him to go to Italy - he gains Modena, Lüneburg gains Grubenhagen. And as said, he seems to have been chummy enough with the Emperor... I dunno if hed convert, but maybe either he does, or the Emperor just hadnwaves that problem away...

I do believe you are right that there were 4 branches; Celle, Dannenberg, Harburg and Wolfenbüttel-Calenberg. I believe that is the order of seniority though I'm not sure of the status of the Harburg branch since its founder abdicated his status of Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. Otherwise all members shared that title in common. I've listed all the living male members that I could find. It seems like it would be perfectly acceptable to pass Modena to a second son. As this was done frequently. This would prevent territories in Germany from reverting to Catholicism at first but given the frequency that brother succeeded brother I'm not sure how long it would be before a Duke of Modena and Brunswick inherited physical territory in the HRE.
I kind of like Henry Julius for all the reasons you've mentioned. He seemed moderate vis a vis Catholics though apparently he started a serious witch hunt. He was trained in law and introduced Roman law in place of Saxon law in his domains. He was involved in the arts and architecture building a great deal in the Italian Renaissance style (possibly making Italy attractive). I wonder what his debt situation was like as apparently that caused him trouble eventually (maybe more motivation to convert and grab Modena?).

The Children of Wilhelm Pious/the Younger (1559-1592) constitued the Lüneburg-Celle branch:

Ernest Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1564-1611
Controlled Celle and Hoya
Died without issue leaving Celle to his next brother Christian.

Christian Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1566-1633
Controlled Celle and Hoya 1611-1633
Died without issue leaving Celle to his next brother Augustus.

Augustus Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1568-1636
Controlled Celle and Hoya 1633-1636
Died without issue leaving Celle to his next brother Frederick.

Frederick Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1574-1648
Contolled Celle and Hoya 1636-1648
Died without issue leaving Celle to his nephew Christian Louis (1622-1665)

George Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1582-1641
Controlled Calenberg 1636-1641
Inherited Calenberg after the partition of the Calenberg-Wolfenbüttel territories. Passed Calenberg to his son Christian Louis who in turn passed it to younger brother George William after acceding to Celle. Eventually his decedents consolidate into a single line that forms the Hanover branch.


The Dannenberg Branch:

Henry III, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1533-1598
Controlled Dannenberg

Julius Ernest, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1571-1636
Contolled Dannenberg after the death of his father Henry III.
Died without issue passing Dannenberg to his brother Augustus.

Francis 1572-1601
Died without issue.

Augustus, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1579-1666
Controlled Wolfenbüttel 1644-1666
Inherited Wolfenbüttel in 1635 but could not assume contol until 1644 due to the 30 Years War. Founded the Wolfenbüttel branch that lasted until 1884.


The Harburg Branch:

Otto II, Prince of Harburg 1528-1603
I've also seen him titled Duke of Brunswick-Harburg so he may have had a Ducal title but certainly had no share in the condomium of Lüneburg.
Controlled Harburg as a fief of Lüneburg.
This branch stemed from the morganatic marriage of Otto I (Otto II’s father) so they were not considered Dukes of Brunswick-Lüneburg. The branch died out with Otto II’s son William Augustus 1565-1642.


The Calenberg-Wolfenbüttel Branch:

Henry Julius, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg 1564-1613
Controlled: Wolfenbüttel, Calenberg, Göttingen
As you noted they had occupied Grubenhagen but it was disputed with Lüneburg-Celle. His son eventually had to cede it to Christian Louis. It should also be noted that his son Frederick Ulrich died without issue in 1634 after a turbulent reign that saw his territories ravaged during the 30 Years War. This lead to the division of his territories amongst the other branches.
 
If I may put on my national chauvinist hat for a moment, this would be very interesting if it happened during the late 18th century when Hanover was in union with Great Britain and European wars were breaking out every five minutes.

Whereas Hanover itself was viewed as something of a tiresome appendage by everyone in Britain except the King (i.e., British foreign policy in Europe was structured around forming alliances with Austria or Prussia in order to safeguard vulnerable Hanover, rather than Hanover being a base for proactive foreign policy in the wider continent) I suspect royal possession of Modena would be of great interest to the British establishment. English and British trade involvement in that part of Italy was long-established and became very important in this time - when Napoleon's Continental System stopped Leghorn (Livorno) in Tuscany trading with Britain, for instance, its economy pretty much collapsed. I know the Duchy of Modena had a bit of coastline, but did it have a port that could have been developed for British trade?

Of course it would also give Britain another awkward continental ally to have to construct alliances around to defend (the Diplomatic Revolution could cause serious problems, what with Hapsburg Tuscany), but I think most British politicians would consider Modena much more worth defending than Hanover.

Me like. Me like _very_ much. Especially as it might be possible to argue (handwaving how the house of Guelf got the property in the first place), that , the territory being Italian, the Salic Law did not apply. So it would have stayed with Britain and Victoria. That's a butterfly the size of a jumbo jet.

Hm and double hm. If the deal happened BEFORE 1717, then that would mean that the Whigs would not be interested in Sophie/Geo I for the succession. Who was the next Protestant candidate. They're running out fast!

I agree that Britain (the Whigs especially, they had a love affair with Italy) would have been much more interested in a convenient Italian territory than an inconvenient German one.
 

Susano

Banned
Me like. Me like _very_ much. Especially as it might be possible to argue (handwaving how the house of Guelf got the property in the first place), that , the territory being Italian, the Salic Law did not apply. So it would have stayed with Britain and Victoria. That's a butterfly the size of a jumbo jet.
Speaking of Butterflies, there wouldnt be a Queen Victoria:rolleyes:
And Italy had the same set of salic (or semi-salic, if you will, but Id rather call the French rules ultra-salic) rules than Germany. Really, Great Britain was the outlier and exception here, not Germany!

I do believe you are right that there were 4 branches; Celle, Dannenberg, Harburg and Wolfenbüttel-Calenberg.
Well, as I understand Dannenberg and Harburg were not souvereign, so theyd considered last, I think (and hence I didnt include them in my count - the nominal 4 lines I meant were Calenberg, Göttingen, Grubenhagen and Lüneburg, even though Göttingen relatively quickly fell to Calenberg - hence my idea of 3 or 4 lines at the time...). Of course, if as per Gonzagas scenario the Emperor needs any Welf willing to convert in Modena, they would be considered if none of the two souvereign lines is willing...

I kind of like Henry Julius for all the reasons you've mentioned. He seemed moderate vis a vis Catholics though apparently he started a serious witch hunt. He was trained in law and introduced Roman law in place of Saxon law in his domains. He was involved in the arts and architecture building a great deal in the Italian Renaissance style (possibly making Italy attractive). I wonder what his debt situation was like as apparently that caused him trouble eventually (maybe more motivation to convert and grab Modena?).
Well, apparently the Welf principalities at that time had literally been in debt for centuries, and yes, quite many Welfs, even the princes, hence rather took up the mercenary business or other opportunities abroads, heh. Henry Julius, too: As advisor to the Empire it seems he was often in Prague (then Imperial Residence) as in the Welf Domains... hm, of course that could have quite negative cosnequences for Modena: Modena is bled dry for finances to get the Welf lands out of debt...
 
La Massa. Which, like Reggio, was technically an own territory, but you know how those things worked in continental Europe, Prussia and Austria were collections of techncially seperate territories as well...
Well, Massa-Carrara was only acquired by the Este after 1740 through marriage, so to make the British have a port in the Italian coast such union should happen after that.

Here an idea for an union of England, Hannover and the Este's territories: James II and Mary of Modena have a daughter instead of a son (let's call her Henrietta, in honour to James' mother). The Protestants still despise the king, but as the succession still goes to Mary and William they don't overthrown him. Mary still dies on schedule in 1694, and when James dies in 1701 Anne becomes queen. By then no one expected her to have a surviving child, and it becomes cleas that her heiress will be the young (and strongly Catholic influenced) princess Henrietta.

In order to save England and Scotland from Popist rule, Henrietta is forced to marry a Protestant relative marries George Augustus of Hannover, (IOTL George II of Great Britain) the son of George, Elector of Hannover (George I). Their marriage is unhappy, but blessed with children.

However, due to butterflies, Anne dies earlier ITTL (maybe she gets some disease at the time her husband died in 1708) while England is still fighting the War of the Spanish Succession. Henrietta becomes queen, and moves back to London with her husband George.

Meanwhile, in Modena other POD happens. Francesco D'Este, Duke of Modena and brother of Mary (James' wife) doesn't die in 1694, but lives longer (let's say 1710). But his uncle, Cardinal Rinaldo D'Este, dies earlier than him instead (IOTL Francesco died in 1694 and Rinaldo died in 1737, becoming duke of Modena, marrying and saving the House of Este from extinction). So there is no male heir for the duchy, and the nearest relative would be exactly Henrietta I of England, Scotland and Ireland (would there be an Act of Union ITTL under this scenario?)

Despite being officialy a Protestant, and with a clearly Protestant husband, Henrietta believes firmly in her blood right to lands of her family mother, and so ask the Emperor to confirm her as Duchess of Modena. The Emperor at that time, Joseph I, was married with a Brunswick princess (whose family, despite being Catholic, was related to the branch of Hannover). Also, he needed England as an ally against France over the throne of Spain, and securing an strategic point in Italy as Modena to an allied nation would be insteresting. So, he confirms Henrietta and George as the rulers of Modena. Eventually, when George dies his son Frederick (who doesn't die earlier ITTL) becomes Elector of Hannover, and after Henrietta's death he is also king of England, Scotland and Ireland, and Duke of Modena.

Of course, this wouldn't give Modena a port, as Massa-Carrara wouldn't be inherited by the Este ITTL, but maybe the British could acquire it using other ways (buying it from the last Cisalpina duke, or just conquering during a war, who knows). But with Modena linked to England I believe they could find a way to make it happen.
 
More awsomeness, and more headaches for the British government.

I think the French will be a bit miffed at Britain coming into Personal Union with an Italian state, though that would be better... :D
 
More awsomeness, and more headaches for the British government.

I think the French will be a bit miffed at Britain coming into Personal Union with an Italian state, though that would be better... :D

I wonder what would be the reaction in Britain, now that the kingdom is in personal union with a Catholic state. Wouldn't such attempt be opposed by Parliament?
 
Speaking of Butterflies, there wouldnt be a Queen Victoria:rolleyes:
And Italy had the same set of salic (or semi-salic, if you will, but Id rather call the French rules ultra-salic) rules than Germany. Really, Great Britain was the outlier and exception here, not Germany!


..

Meh. The Salic Law is a foreign thing, which proper chaps don't understand (on account of it being foreign). And, being foreign means that we (proper chaps) can ignore it , or not , as we choose.

And France can't have the Salic Law, otherwise Hen VI couldn't have been King of France, could he. Elizabeth I was Queen Regnant of France " " Twelve sovereigns of England have borne the arms and style of France," replied Elizabeth proudly, "and I will not resign them" "

If it was good enough for Gloriana it's good enough for me.

Therefore, on the meh principle, and because the only effective rule about Italian dynasties is that no rules apply, I think that England could argue that the Modena inheritance was not governed by Salic Law.

So, assuming that a Victoria* ends up splitting off the personal union with Hanover (which _was_ Salic), she could still retain that with Modena.

Otherwise it goes to Ernst Augustus* along with Hanover. Which would be even more interesting.
 
I wonder what would be the reaction in Britain, now that the kingdom is in personal union with a Catholic state. Wouldn't such attempt be opposed by Parliament?

Well, probably. Depending on when. Parliament seemed to oppose most attempts at anything interesting. But it would not (necessarily) be illegal.

The Act of Settlement only says that the monarch may not be a Papist, nor marry a papist. Doesn't say he/she can't rule a predominantly papist country . After all, nobody objected to Ireland . Well, lots of folk objected to Ireland, for lots of reasons, but no-one said that the King/Queen wasn't permitted to rule it. Except the Irish of course, and no-one took any notice of them.

If the Union took place pre AoS, then no problems
 
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Thande

Donor
The whole Catholic thing was mainly aimed at Catholics in Britain (and Ireland, but it comes down to the same thing - people close by who could rise up and stab you in the back in the event of an invasion by one of the absolutist Catholic powers on the continent). A minor Italian state a long way away would not provoke such concerns, especially if it produced valuable trade (see India). And Britain did have Catholic possessions (albeit not royal domains) such as Minorca and Malta without provoking anti-papist riots.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, Massa-Carrara was only acquired by the Este after 1740 through marriage, so to make the British have a port in the Italian coast such union should happen after that.
Ah, oops. And Ferrara was already lost way before. That makes Modena landlocked for most of the time of the challenge.

Here an idea for an union of England, Hannover and the Este's territories: James II and Mary of Modena have a daughter instead of a son (let's call her Henrietta, in honour to James' mother). The Protestants still despise the king, but as the succession still goes to Mary and William they don't overthrown him. Mary still dies on schedule in 1694, and when James dies in 1701 Anne becomes queen. By then no one expected her to have a surviving child, and it becomes cleas that her heiress will be the young (and strongly Catholic influenced) princess Henrietta.

In order to save England and Scotland from Popist rule, Henrietta is forced to marry a Protestant relative marries George Augustus of Hannover, (IOTL George II of Great Britain) the son of George, Elector of Hannover (George I). Their marriage is unhappy, but blessed with children.
Well, I see this scenario of you has found a strong resonance, but its not quite what I meant. What I meant is Welf inheriting Este by virtue of being Welf, not by marriage. Anybody can inherit anything by marriage, after all, thats no great art! :p (Well, okay, granted, lining up all the potential husbands and wifes and their degrees of relation is, heh)
 
Well, I see this scenario of you has found a strong resonance, but its not quite what I meant. What I meant is Welf inheriting Este by virtue of being Welf, not by marriage. Anybody can inherit anything by marriage, after all, thats no great art! :p (Well, okay, granted, lining up all the potential husbands and wifes and their degrees of relation is, heh)

Sure, I knew that the OP asked for Welf inheriting Este due to being the same family, but when Thande made the comment about that happening in the 18th century I just tried to came up with an idea for that happening.:p But in order to match the OP the first scenario maybe is still the most probable.
 
If I may put on my national chauvinist hat for a moment, this would be very interesting if it happened during the late 18th century when Hanover was in union with Great Britain and European wars were breaking out every five minutes.

To tell you the truth, when I read this words a weird image jumped in my mind: queen Victoria entering into the Quirinale palace and being saluted as: "Victoria Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Ireland and Italy, Empress of India..."



How do you think would have reacted pope Pio IX?
 

Susano

Banned
Sure, I knew that the OP asked for Welf inheriting Este due to being the same family, but when Thande made the comment about that happening in the 18th century I just tried to came up with an idea for that happening.:p But in order to match the OP the first scenario maybe is still the most probable.

Yes, and the fact that this is a century before the OTL Welf succession in Great Britain does most probably mean the latter one is butterflied away. It was a rather ridicously jump through several families that made that succession possible anyways :D

Now using that scenario... I wonder where Henry Julius would reside. Probably constantly traveling between Calenberg, Prague and Modena. And a ssaid, financially exploiting Modena to settle his debts. Now to keep the union intact, his elder son Frederick Ulrich needs to have a son himself, unlike OTL. And, then theres the 30 Years War soon starts (I dont think it can plausibly be butterflied away in just 20 years), and the younger son iwas IOTL Christian, the Mad Halberstadter, one of the more brutal generals of the time with a consuming hatred for everything Catholic, and a deep devotion to the "Winter Queen", Elizabeth Stuart, wife of Frederick V of the Palatinate. Of course, he was born post-PoD, and I wonder if travels to (catholic) Italy would have an effect on him (thats assuming Henry Julius does not convert and foregoes cuius regio eius religio, anyways). Were it not for Elizabeth I could see him on either side, it seems he really was more itching for a fight than anything else... Heh. Just what Germany needs. Yet another mercenary army, raised in Italy, ravaging the lands...
 
Now using that scenario... I wonder where Henry Julius would reside. Probably constantly traveling between Calenberg, Prague and Modena. And a ssaid, financially exploiting Modena to settle his debts. Now to keep the union intact, his elder son Frederick Ulrich needs to have a son himself, unlike OTL. And, then theres the 30 Years War soon starts (I dont think it can plausibly be butterflied away in just 20 years), and the younger son iwas IOTL Christian, the Mad Halberstadter, one of the more brutal generals of the time with a consuming hatred for everything Catholic, and a deep devotion to the "Winter Queen", Elizabeth Stuart, wife of Frederick V of the Palatinate. Of course, he was born post-PoD, and I wonder if travels to (catholic) Italy would have an effect on him (thats assuming Henry Julius does not convert and foregoes cuius regio eius religio, anyways). Were it not for Elizabeth I could see him on either side, it seems he really was more itching for a fight than anything else... Heh. Just what Germany needs. Yet another mercenary army, raised in Italy, ravaging the lands...

That's why my first thought was that Henry Julius (or the other prince who receives Modena) should convert to receive it. I can't see the other surrounding Catholic states accepting that (including the Papal States), and they would do anything possible to avoid granting Catholic lands so near to Papal territory to a Lutheran.

Also, if he converts, he would probably receive Ferrara also, maybe as a gift of the Pope for chosing the "true faith".
 
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