Challenge: Earlier Scientific Revolution

It's funny, nobody ever tells me I somehow don't understand evolution unless I'm talking about Teleology. Frankly, this gives me the impression I understand Evolution perfectly fine for a layman, but nobody seems to really understand Teleology.

I'm glad you've decided you're smarter than everyone else in the world. :p

The concept creates nothing but misunderstandings to you, and people who didn't spend a long time studying what ancient Greek words meant in context and how the words changed later. This is like saying that because "Evolution" creates so much misunderstandings among Conservative Christians who believe it means we came from Monkeys, it must be useless and shouldn't be invoked in discussions on life.
For a philosopher, you sure do employ a lot of really misleading comparisons. It's nothing alike.

If Teleology is a concept specialised to students of the history of philosophy, and not useful to actual life scientists driving their own discipline, then it shouldn't be referenced when talking about that discipline.

Conservative Christians are not typically biologists, and their opinions aren't really relevant to the discipline itself. They have their "intelligent design" for example, which like "teleology" informed a lot of early natural scientists. Informed mistakenly. We scoff at the first (rightly), and I don't see the necessity for the second.

In reality though, it's really not that difficult or unusual. The language used to explain Evolution invokes Teleology all the time. "Survival of the fittest" and "Giraffes evolved long necks to reach the trees."

These aren't "useful metaphors" or whatever thing you'll probably say. They are in fact accurate descriptions of what happened, albeit, imprecise and not the full account.
Nope. Useful metaphors for grade students. Not useful beyond that. But you knew I was going to say that.

Here's a phrase for you to ponder: "blue light makes plants grow better"

You're not allowed to grammatically change the subject of the sentence to be plants. It has to be light (same way you disallow me to reject "giraffes" as a subject and talk about molecule replication).

Clearly the Telos of EM waves between 450 and 490nm is to "make plants grow better".

----

Think of evolution as a description of the following game:

You have a bunch of coloured stones. You also have a magic lamp that eliminates a set fraction of stones of a certain colour when shined on them.

Nontheless three conditions always hold true:

1. in a given time period all stones get doubled in number;
2. and also a small percentage of stones randomly changes colour to one of the colours in the possible set.
3. over time, the magic stone-destroying lamp may change its mode to destroy stones of a different colour.

That's the simplest model, and explains pretty much everything.

If you want more accurate, we could simulate genetic linkage, sexual selection, founder effect, punctuated equilirium and so on. But the above should suffice.

What's the Telos of the game?
 
Elfwine,
The point I was making about non-literate civilizations was that just because it is complex it does not necessarily have a need for a printing press.
Moving along, Medieval England I think we’ll disagree on. You could have one but I don’t see it “taking off”. Byzantium, I see the need and the market. What I am saying is a printing press is not plug and play. Off the top of my head I see inadequate paper supply to make it viable and those scribes currently doing the job are not going to be happy. The smart ones are going to arrange monopolies for their product. The other ones are going to stab you to death at night and light the press on fire.
 
I'm glad you've decided you're smarter than everyone else in the world.

Not everyone else in the world. And not smarter. Just more knowledgeable on a very specific thing than some other people.

It's not like I've never met anybody who agreed with me, or never been able to convince anybody of Teleology in Evolution. Normally all that happens is that they agree and find it a not very important or astonishing revelation. Which it isn't. Because Final Causes aren't particularly special or awe inspiring or anything really.

If Teleology is a concept specialised to students of the history of philosophy, and not useful to actual life scientists driving their own discipline, then it shouldn't be referenced when talking about that discipline.

Then I misunderstood you.

Of course I still disagree. It's important and useful because it's a part of a complete account.

Here's a phrase for you to ponder: "blue light makes plants grow better"

You're not allowed to grammatically change the subject of the sentence to be plants. It has to be light (same way you disallow me to reject "giraffes" as a subject and talk about molecule replication).

Clearly the Telos of EM waves between 450 and 490nm is to "make plants grow better".

Not an applicable analogy for two reasons, one of which is pretty major.

When did I disallow you to reject giraffes and talk about molecule replication?

And second, to give a Telos of something one must understand all the things it does, and make a distinction between what it does incidentally and what it does as part of what it is. "Blue Light" only incidentally helps "plants" grow because of the way plants are, not at all because of what "Blue Light" is. Blue Light also does many other things. Blue Light helps Plants Grow in the same way Eclipses Happen. It's not a Telos, it's something of a coincidence as far as the subject you're forcing me to focus on is concerned. "Blue Light" isn't what it is to make plants grow. Blue light didn't change or do anything. Plants did.


What's the Telos of the game?

You're missing something I think. Evolution exists as part of the world and thus we can place it as doing something relevant. It's also non-random. This games exists in the context of... what exactly? What is it doing? Is it doing anything at all? By itself it just looks to be concluding in random events, which in itself implies a lack of Telos.

If nothing else the Telos might be just the promotion of stones, if stones only exist in the game and not outside of it. We would just have to talk about The Rules as The Game you're asking me about, The Game affecting The Stones, and pretend that this is universal.
 
It's also non-random.
I don't think i agree with that. Evolution is the survival of the fittest, yes, but what the "fittest" is, that's random, because the physical conditions of the environment (what dictates fitness) change (almost) randomly.

In fact, you can use evolution as a... "teleological tool"? Evolution as a simulation algorithm (genetic algorithms), is highly teleological, because you set the boundary conditions of the problem you want to solve and evolution will find the optimal solution. But again, that's because you have a fixed set of boundary conditions you want to optimize (whether it is the electron density of a many-atom problem which satisfies the variational princile or the most efficient way to make a sewage system pass through certain key points, etc). In natural evolution, those boundary conditions change randomly over time and from place to place, which is what creates the great diversity of life-forms.
 
Elfwine,

I had a chance to check the availability of parchment and paper from my earlier statement.

For parchment in the 1300s on average you get 10 pages per animal so for a hundred page book you would need 10 animals. Assuming the same is true for the year 1000CE, if you want to scale up to say 1,000 books you now need 10,000 animals. I think economically that’s not going to work.

The earliest paper in Europe is not until the 1100s that I can find. The Islamic world is producing paper and books at the time. Interestingly, if the printing press was (somehow) invented there at this time it might have been accepted more than when it was introduced later. Oddly, bringing use back to the original thread, if the printing press was invented in the Islamic world at that specific time, during what some have argued was their scientific revolution it could have had interesting effects.
 
Elfwine,

I had a chance to check the availability of parchment and paper from my earlier statement.

For parchment in the 1300s on average you get 10 pages per animal so for a hundred page book you would need 10 animals. Assuming the same is true for the year 1000CE, if you want to scale up to say 1,000 books you now need 10,000 animals. I think economically that’s not going to work.

I don't see why not. Ten thousand animals isn't that many.

And when it does become an issue, people will look for alternate materials.

The earliest paper in Europe is not until the 1100s that I can find. The Islamic world is producing paper and books at the time. Interestingly, if the printing press was (somehow) invented there at this time it might have been accepted more than when it was introduced later. Oddly, bringing use back to the original thread, if the printing press was invented in the Islamic world at that specific time, during what some have argued was their scientific revolution it could have had interesting effects.
And the Byzantines, at least, are able to borrow/steal paper (making tech) if they see it as useful.
 
Perhaps have Aristotle's ideas somehow fall into disregard, allowing the more correct ideas of other ancient thinkers to flourish? There were others living in ancient Greek times who were right about the earth revolving around the sun among other things.
 
I don't think i agree with that. Evolution is the survival of the fittest, yes, but what the "fittest" is, that's random, because the physical conditions of the environment (what dictates fitness) change (almost) randomly.

It's not really important if we're just talking about the rules of Evolution, or as you call it, the "algorithm."

I wouldn't call the environment random either, just difficult to predict.

Perhaps have Aristotle's ideas somehow fall into disregard, allowing the more correct ideas of other ancient thinkers to flourish? There were others living in ancient Greek times who were right about the earth revolving around the sun among other things.

People seem to forget that the reason Early Heliocentrism died was because it wasn't more obvious than Geocentrism and there was no way to give it more evidence. There weren't powerful telescopes that could see things, and Ptolemy's model predicted the movements of planets accurately enough and were seen as simple. Of course we don't have any existing old Heliocentric model to compare, but still.
 
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I don't see why not. Ten thousand animals isn't that many.

Actually, if the method of parchment becomes widely used and the demand for books is high enough, herding exclusively for that purpouse could be greatly profitable. This would make the stabling rate grow to increse profit. A higher degree of livestock stabling will produce, among other things (like food), a large excedent of... manure!

We would have the ingredients ready for an equivalent of the British Agricultural Revolution, or, as i like to call it, the Poop Revolution.

:D
 
Actually, if the method of parchment becomes widely used and the demand for books is high enough, herding exclusively for that purpouse could be greatly profitable. This would make the stabling rate grow to increse profit. A higher degree of livestock stabling will produce, among other things (like food), a large excedent of... manure!

We would have the ingredients ready for an equivalent of the British Agricultural Revolution, or, as i like to call it, the Poop Revolution.

:D

This is a good point. I'm sure there's something to add to it, but it raises interesting questions.
 
Actually, if the method of parchment becomes widely used and the demand for books is high enough, herding exclusively for that purpouse could be greatly profitable. This would make the stabling rate grow to increse profit. A higher degree of livestock stabling will produce, among other things (like food), a large excedent of... manure!

We would have the ingredients ready for an equivalent of the British Agricultural Revolution, or, as i like to call it, the Poop Revolution.

:D

Hmmmm.

From an economic stand point I'm seeing trouble going from 1 to 1000 number of copies of parchment very quickly or profitably. If the supply was 10 last year to 10,000 this year it is going to get increasingly expensive. The other 9,990 animals are earmarked or projected for other uses. You have to outbid their original intended users, once you take any excess off the market the additional are going to be more and more expensive. You can't just create herds to fill the gap in the short run, you have to go farther and farther afield or use less preferred materials. Parchment is also labor intensive. You'd have to have something like a 1000 times more people making it. Paper is a process that lends itself to mechanization. You can pulp plant fiber easier than remove hair for instance. I could see either slowly developing limiting the potential profitability of a printing press. Of course if it was an Imperial project you might be able to get over the hump so to speak in the long run.
 
Hmmmm.

From an economic stand point I'm seeing trouble going from 1 to 1000 number of copies of parchment very quickly or profitably. If the supply was 10 last year to 10,000 this year it is going to get increasingly expensive. The other 9,990 animals are earmarked or projected for other uses. You have to outbid their original intended users, once you take any excess off the market the additional are going to be more and more expensive. You can't just create herds to fill the gap in the short run, you have to go farther and farther afield or use less preferred materials. Parchment is also labor intensive. You'd have to have something like a 1000 times more people making it. Paper is a process that lends itself to mechanization. You can pulp plant fiber easier than remove hair for instance. I could see either slowly developing limiting the potential profitability of a printing press. Of course if it was an Imperial project you might be able to get over the hump so to speak in the long run.

I don't think the growth would be that fast. The increase in stabling would be slow, only as the profit margins would allow for buying food for an increasing number of heads.
but, as soon as prices would start to fall, books would be available not only for the imperial family and the higher aristocracy, but also for lower ranks of the nobility.
Related questions: how did education work in the eastern empire? did it have feedback with the imperial administration positions?
 
Writing material is going to be a serious bottleneck, but expect htat if the demand consolidates, knowledge about paper making will be sought and found pretty quickly after 750.
 
Do we know who made the newspapers? Because if it wasn't just for official announcements (or if these norms changed) I can definitely see a gossipy or political newspaper/pamphlet war happening in Rome or another cultural center. I'll acknowledge that as a society slaves were plentiful-BUT the means to feed and house them weren't necessarily ubiquitous.
Based on this heres my proposed history derailment:

An uppity 'middle-class' family (without the means to waste slave-labour on writing of all things,) trying to compete with patricians in the newpaper/gossip conflicts happily takes up the idea of a slave/tradespersoninventor to use wood-blocks/wax/lead carvings dipped in ink, pressed against a papyrus scroll.

Anycase, this 'middle-class' family's idea catches on amongst other families who happily put 9 out of 10 of their copyist slaves to work on other things. Or they simply send them to the gladiator pits and enjoy using 90% less food on slaves. In any case, printing innovation creeps in and people experiment with moveable single-letter blocks. The jump in demand sees papyrus costs skyrocket, but nevertheless the printing tech slowly spreads to Alexandria and it's library and to the government, where officials use it for mass-producing declarations, legal judgements, and military tactics manuals. As alternative papyrus products come onto the market, printing costs go down and usefull how-to manuals start popping up. Engineering, agriculture, etc. Particularly, do-your-own make-up books get popular and in their wake so does lead-heavy mascara-induced insanity and sickness.

Amongst the libel and scandal that still permeates the gossip-pages, Mr Plot-Advancement defends his insane wife's recent social faux pas by blaming a make-up merchant for poisoning her into insanity. Merchant complains to officials. Officials say "prove it or face historically appropriate punishment". Mr Plot Advancement says- "lets make half of my slaves wear Mr Merchant's make-up". Slaves sicken too slowly, Mr Plot Advancement gets flogged (or imprisoned) and things look bleak... But then the made-up slaves start dropping like flies or gibbering madly. Mr Plot-Advancement is exonerated, lead-heavy make-up is brought into disrepute and the seeds of experimental method are planted: which, amongst other important effects, ultimately isolates lead as the culprit- thereby helping the ruling class avoid their worst insanities.

So. Thats my first post on these forums (go easy)- but let me know what ya think :confused:
 
Warning long rant ahead

Paganimagus,

The Roman Printing Press. There are some good threads proposing this. I’m going to make the technical argument that Guttenberg’s printing press which makes mass printing possible is actually quite sophisticated. The type pieces were developed by Guttenberg from his previous experiences in jewelry. The type pieces can’t be too sharp or they’ll damage the matter being printed on. They can’t be too soft or they will wear out before you make any profit from making them and your image won’t be clear. Guttenberg and associates also had to develop an ink specifically for the press due to problems in blotting and drying. Also papyrus is more expensive than parchment in Europe so it is a poor choice as a material to print on to make money or afford mass copies. I concede it is possible this was not always the case though. Paper, lots of cheap paper seems to be the necessary ingredient. Finally, in Guttenberg’s time there were several competitors working on the same idea. The idea may have been in Rome but the technology wasn’t there.

I’ll propose the importation or early development of paper in Ancient Rome might have had a similar effect. If you have a paper mill and a slave that you’d have to feed anyway making 100 cheap paper scandal sheets in a day selling each one and another slave making “the writing of the prostitutes” [porn-o-graphy] another excerpts from the Iliad, another under contract to distribute official edicts, another Caesar’s Gallic Wars and so on I think you may have a workable idea.

One major digression concerning paper. I realized the other day that all the early experiments with Balloons from the Floating Lanterns in China, Gusmao’s in Iberia, to those French brothers in the paper industry who get all the credit were either made entirely or partially of paper. There is a story of the Montgolfier brothers getting the idea tossing a paper bag in the fire that instead floats up the chimney (I also heard one was watching clothes dry with the hot drafts getting caught and lifting the clothes so take your pick for inspiration). Granted in theory silk or taffeta could have been used in small scale if the weight isn’t too much and if the balloon was left to seal by the smoke but otherwise a light airtight material is needed for models between the idea and 600lbs of cloth for a man sized model.

Now I wonder if it could start that development with papyrus? Floating Eye of Ra anyone? A revolution in perspective, experiments in aeronautics (trying to fly it, dropping stuff off to fall, parachute or glide) meteorology (we know not to go up in a rainstorm but the first guy…), atmospherics, city planning, cartography, communication (semaphore), military operations, religious experience…
 
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Totally fair points, I'd just got the impression that papyrus was cheaper in the ancient times before they made it go damn-near extinct. I wonder whether papyrus could've been modified to become more paper-like, especially if people were short on the main material and were bastardising it with whatever they had around.
Cool idea about papyrus-driven aeronautics, definitely plausible, but like my printing idea it'd be handicapped by papyrus' tendency to break rather than bend, let alone fold. Any sizeable balloon (certainly one big enough to carry a man) needs to be slightly collapsible in order to practically transportable or to survive the impact of landing.
Still- stationary, one-use balloons would still be quite a spectacle...

And actually... this'd be a great motivator for the development of soft, flexible paper :D
 
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And therefore not random. Random "within the confines of X" is not random as I mean it here.

Random Change as I mean it would require organisms like say, salamanders, to suddenly grow six heads and then sprout wings. Why? Because random. Not because of the environment, not in response to predators, not due to genetic drift, not because it helps the organisms to live, but just because it's random and it just happened. That clearly does not happen. There is a certain consistency of change, and that in itself implies a Telos.

:mad: Please go and read up about evolution.

Organisms in a species have a range of features ( if not we'll all look like eack other which would suck.)

An organism whose set of features can be passed down to more children would become more widespread after a few generations.A lot of these microevolutions combine to form macroevolutions , like eyes and brains.

Read this first
http://lesswrong.com/lw/kr/an_alien_god/
 
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