Challenge : Dutch West Africa !

With PoD around 1400s at the earliest, make the Dutch to be possessing the capability to acquire at least Algeria, Senegal, Mauritania and Western Sudan (Mali and Burkina Faso, primarily) as their colonies, either under direct control or through VOC-esque trading company, or the latter first, then the former, as in OTL Indonesia's case.

The Dutch people which will be engaging in this scenario must be protestants, or at least their Christianity must be cut off from Rome and has as substantial differences as OTL Calvinism with Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, the later the PoD, the better. Preferably after OTL's date of Dutch independence from Spain. Besides, I'd prefer the process of Dutch colonialisation of the region to be somewhat resembling OTL's colonization of the region by the French in 19th century. Hence, having this be done without industrial level technology is not recommended, but isn't probihited whatsoever, if it can lead to the process of colonization to be just slightly slower compared to OTL French case. Also, the spread of Christianity by the Dutch musn't be more widespread then the result of French efforts to spread Catholicism in the region IOTL.
 
The Dutch could set up a series of Trading bases along the African coast, from Senegal to the Cape (as the Portuguese did) in order to control the spice trade routes, then expand from there.
 
The Dutch could set up a series of Trading bases along the African coast, from Senegal to the Cape (as the Portuguese did) in order to control the spice trade routes, then expand from there.

Surely, but how about to get the Algeria requirement ?

Dutch Gibraltar ? Hmm wonder how the Spaniards will gonna take this...... But since I can't see the colonization process to be happening before 19th century I guess there is a fair, if not rather substantial chance for this. The question though, how to make the Dutch strong enough, or the Spanish weak enough for this happening ?
 
Surely, but how about to get the Algeria requirement ?

Dutch Gibraltar ? Hmm wonder how the Spaniards will gonna take this...... But since I can't see the colonization process to be happening before 19th century I guess there is a fair, if not rather substantial chance for this. The question though, how to make the Dutch strong enough, or the Spanish weak enough for this happening ?

I think that any Dutch involvement in Algeria will start unofficially and end unofficially (a puppet/commonwealth style state) formed by large amounts of Dutch Settlers slowly coming to dominate the area (South African Style).

The other option I can think of is a particularly stable, militaristic, and economically powerful Netherlands invading the whole of the Barbary States in the late 1600's or 1700's as an international effort to lower piracy. Or there could be an international coalition effort (GB, France, Spain, and Netherlands) to conquer North Africa resulting in Holland in control of Algeria.

Hope this is suitable.
 
The question though, how to make the Dutch strong enough, or the Spanish weak enough for this happening ?

And to achieve this, if it should be through personal union with other nation(s), then there are two conditions :

1) No personal union with any Catholic countries. This union must be Protestant(or anything other than Catholicism), and religiously preferably that Netherlands and her union partner to share the same doctrinal denomination.

2) No personal union with England, France, or anything that equals unified Germany.
 
The real reason why the Dutch were never able to get a hold onto a really large colonial empire like the British and the French is that during their/our glory days, they never really had an overpopulation. Even the poor Dutchmen where bloody rich compared to other europeans in comparable social groups. There was no reason for them to go over sea and take big risks while they had a good and safe life in the Netherlands.
In order for the Dutch to establish a larger colonial empire, you must find a way to sort this out.
 
The problem with a Dutch west Africa, at least to the extend of French west Africa, is that the Dutch started colonization basicly to make a lot of money. That is why they got to Indonesia, because that was the best place to make a lot of money. In western Africa not a lot of money ccan be made, so there isn't realy a good reason for the Dutch to colonize it. The most important product to make money there was slaves, which is why the Dutch created a couple of trading posts in Ghana. Another important reason for the Dutch not to get involved in Africa was that they already had one of the most important and prestiges colonies, Indonesia. And another problem is that they have a too small population to colonize much of the world. And Africa, certainly Algeria is closer to France, so a lot easier to colonize for France.

To get a Dutch west Africa you need a different colonial attitude for the Dutch, the loss of other major colonies (Indonesia), a larger Netherlands and an absent France.

A larger netherlands is hard, certainly if you don't want a Dutch germany, but not impossibly. You suggest a POD in 1400, that should be early enough to create a bigger Netherlands. So i propose this:
When the Netherlands is formed it also includes various border areas next to the Netherlands including East Frisia, Munster, Cleve/Julich/Berg/Mark. They end up in the hands of a foreign catholic king like OTL with Spain and the reformation arrives and the Dutch decide to revolt and basicly all of it becomes independent. The Netherlands has a larger population now. Lets see, the Netherlands compete for the trading routes to Indonesia and India but fail to become the largest colonizer in them. Lets give them a couple of small trading posts like they had OTL in India, the rest goes to France, that would keep the French occupied in the colonial game. The Netherlands also tries to colonise the Americas and is more succesful there. No large north American Dutch colony, but they do manage to get some carribean islands, Guyana and part of Brasil. For these kind of colonies they need a lot of slaves, which they decide to get in Africa, creating outposts there.

Ok, the Netherlands loses their Brasil/Guyana colony to some revolt (or something) in the early 19th century, so losing many prestige. As they are still an important country, they now own at the beginning of the industrial revolution both Belgium and the German Ruhr area, they decide that they still want a large colony and start to focus on Western Africa, where they still have the old slave trade outposts. They expand and in the end it includes everything you asked for. France isn't interested as they are busy colonising Indonesia and Australia and the other colonial powers are also busy with their own colonies.

I am not too certain how likely this is, but it is the best i can do.
 

Onyx

Banned
How about Sierra Leone and Liberia, before the Americans got there, the Dutch managed to colonize the Liberian region, but Liberia around that time was part of Britiain. SO maybe they can have colony in Benin (Dahomey)
 
The problem with a Dutch west Africa, at least to the extend of French west Africa, is that the Dutch started colonization basicly to make a lot of money. That is why they got to Indonesia, because that was the best place to make a lot of money. In western Africa not a lot of money can be made, so there isn't realy a good reason for the Dutch to colonize it. The most important product to make money there was slaves, which is why the Dutch created a couple of trading posts in Ghana. Another important reason for the Dutch not to get involved in Africa was that they already had one of the most important and prestiges colonies, Indonesia. And another problem is that they have a too small population to colonize much of the world. And Africa, certainly Algeria is closer to France, so a lot easier to colonize for France.

To get a Dutch west Africa you need a different colonial attitude for the Dutch, the loss of other major colonies (Indonesia), a larger Netherlands and an absent France.

A larger netherlands is hard, certainly if you don't want a Dutch germany, but not impossibly. You suggest a POD in 1400, that should be early enough to create a bigger Netherlands. So i propose this:
When the Netherlands is formed it also includes various border areas next to the Netherlands including East Frisia, Munster, Cleve/Julich/Berg/Mark. They end up in the hands of a foreign catholic king like OTL with Spain and the reformation arrives and the Dutch decide to revolt and basicly all of it becomes independent. The Netherlands has a larger population now. Lets see, the Netherlands compete for the trading routes to Indonesia and India but fail to become the largest colonizer in them. Lets give them a couple of small trading posts like they had OTL in India, the rest goes to France, that would keep the French occupied in the colonial game. The Netherlands also tries to colonise the Americas and is more succesful there. No large north American Dutch colony, but they do manage to get some carribean islands, Guyana and part of Brasil. For these kind of colonies they need a lot of slaves, which they decide to get in Africa, creating outposts there.

Ok, the Netherlands loses their Brasil/Guyana colony to some revolt (or something) in the early 19th century, so losing many prestige. As they are still an important country, they now own at the beginning of the industrial revolution both Belgium and the German Ruhr area, they decide that they still want a large colony and start to focus on Western Africa, where they still have the old slave trade outposts. They expand and in the end it includes everything you asked for. France isn't interested as they are busy colonising Indonesia and Australia and the other colonial powers are also busy with their own colonies.

I am not too certain how likely this is, but it is the best i can do.

Hmm....

I'm agree with almost all of your points, but I wonder that as much less significant attention to the east as that for this scenario is really that required. Surely that more successful Dutch efforts in areas west of Cape is an absolute necessity, in addition to much larger population and the at least virtual absence of France as a competitor in West Africa. But I don't see why the Dutch should simply abandon Indian Ocean and surroundings for this. I even fail to see why the whole Indonesia can't be Dutch as per OTL ITTL. But I guess a much more successful Dutch performance in India will greatly help this scenario. This is quite of a wank, of course.... But I do imagine this scenario to be happening in a quite Dutch-wank world :)

Also while I'm against the Netherlands to be in any kind of a German union in this scenario, I'm not against it to be possessing a quite chunck of Germany. I imagine that this kind of Netherlands/United Province/whatever it is will be at least containing either Hannover, Rhineland, Westphalia, two of three or even all of them ! Also, screwing over France seems to be quite effective card to realize this scenario, too. A much more screwed France post-revolutionary/Napoleonic era / much more screwed France in the late 18th century, perhaps ?
 
Hmm....

I'm agree with almost all of your points, but I wonder that as much less significant attention to the east as that for this scenario is really that required. Surely that more successful Dutch efforts in areas west of Cape is an absolute necessity, in addition to much larger population and the at least virtual absence of France as a competitor in West Africa. But I don't see why the Dutch should simply abandon Indian Ocean and surroundings for this. I even fail to see why the whole Indonesia can't be Dutch as per OTL ITTL. But I guess a much more successful Dutch performance in India will greatly help this scenario. This is quite of a wank, of course.... But I do imagine this scenario to be happening in a quite Dutch-wank world :)

Also while I'm against the Netherlands to be in any kind of a German union in this scenario, I'm not against it to be possessing a quite chunck of Germany. I imagine that this kind of Netherlands/United Province/whatever it is will be at least containing either Hannover, Rhineland, Westphalia, two of three or even all of them ! Also, screwing over France seems to be quite effective card to realize this scenario, too. A much more screwed France post-revolutionary/Napoleonic era / much more screwed France in the late 18th century, perhaps ?


The reason I let the Dutch lose Indonesia is that Indonesia is too big and too wealthy. Indonesia was basicly the big price in the colonisation game (although that is a Dutch biased opinion). If the netherlands would gain Indonesia it would completely focus on it and the money that can be made there. I think that Dutch Indonesia is th reason that the Dutch weren't that interested in the America's. You can focus only on a couple of colonies and the smaller a country is the less colonies it can focus on (that is why I don't buy the Britwanks in which Britain has all of north America, india and Indonesia, it is just too much for one country). Sure a bigger Netherlands can focus on more colonies, but in the end there must be a reason for the Netherlands to focus on Africa, with Indonesia in the picture, I don't think they will. Ok, we can give the Dutch some territories in the east. A couple of tradingposts in India, Ceylon, maybe a couple of trading posts in a balkanised Indonesia, but in the end there must be a reason for the Dutch to focus on Africa. In my opinion a very important reason for the French to go for west africa was the loss of their colonies in America and India to the British; they didn't have anything good left, so they focussed on what was left and that was west Africa (and Indo-China).

Also a bigger netherlands is possible, but for that the netherlands must be for some reason more focussed on Germany (or better Europe in general). OTL the netherlands wasn't because it focussed on the very profitable colonies. If the Netherlands had been more focussed on Europe I am certain they would have been able to expand into at least Belgium, but probably various parts of germany too. If we use my scenario in which the Netherlands doesn't have Indonesia and because of that only less profitable colonies it could start focussing on Europe and possibly snatch up more of Germany, including the rhinland, west-phalia and Hannover. Maybe they pretend to be the saviours of protestantism and try to remove those areas from the catholic emperors influence, while possibly a protestant Brandenburg or Saxony (or maybe even Sweden or Denmark) does the same in north eastern Germany. Eventually Germany as we know it is split up in three parts a northwestern Protestant Netherlands, a Northeastern Protestant Brandenburg (or whatever) and a southern catholic Austria/HRE.
 
Just to make the Netherlands a litle bigger for a larger base as colonisator, a good pod is to give Charles V or even earlier the Dukes of Bourgondy a bit more time to form a larger Kreits.
One good opportunity is that one of the men, conquer all the possesions of the Dukes of Gelre, that is Gelre, and Kleef and Julich. Later on some dispute fought on the batle foield with the Bishops of Munster, if won, adding Koln and parts of Munster to this bigger Netherlands in beiing.

This would give a larger base, and more stable than the southern border
 
After I think more about it, the problem seems to me to be less of population base, but more about their naval grace. Sure if it's to tame Algeria, they'll need to send at least some settlers there for that, either for pragmatic reason or indeed to make it a Mediterranean Netherlands, though most likely it'd be for the former. And also, this Netherlands/* that would need Algeria should have no comfortable access to the Cape. Though the French problem is still the same, and I think not just an upperhand over the French in sharing borders with them, but also to make the French navy to be basically impotent !
 
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