Challenge: Development of a common language for Europe

[Cash]

Is there any way that Europe could have developed a common language, rather than the current polyglot of tongues? Up through the Renaissance Latin was the language of science and law (and religion, of course), but the usage never filtered down to the general population. I've seen it argued that the development of the printing press actually aided in establishing and protecting local languages, since many printed works were in the vernacular.

Would a lengthier reign by the Roman Empire have helped? Imposition by above by a European dictator? A policy by the Catholic Church to establish Latin as the lingua universalis?

 

[stevep]

Is there any way that Europe could have developed a common language, rather than the current polyglot of tongues? Up through the Renaissance Latin was the language of science and law (and religion, of course), but the usage never filtered down to the general population. I've seen it argued that the development of the printing press actually aided in establishing and protecting local languages, since many printed works were in the vernacular.

Would a lengthier reign by the Roman Empire have helped? Imposition by above by a European dictator? A policy by the Catholic Church to establish Latin as the lingua universalis?

Cash

Your probably touched on the only really likely case for it to occur. A slightly more successful early Roman empire that advances to ultimately the Elbe-Bohemia-Cathaprians line, which it actually got quite close to. This brings so much of Europe under imperial control and shortens the defencive line that the empire is likely to last somewhat longer. You might well end up as a European China, with a continuous cultural identity which more successfully integrates and converts any invaders. As such the Roman-Latin culture is likely to become even more dominant on the continent and hence swamp just about everything else. If you can avoid a Christianity type religion gaining power even better as you negate one of the most divisive influences. [The down side is without the division and conflict so brought you might well not get the development of modern European ideas of human rights and identities].

Steve

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If you can avoid a Christianity type religion gaining power even better as you negate one of the most divisive influences.

Except that 'Christendom' was the single unifying factor in OTL Europe.


Even if the Roman Empire had somehow survived, I'll bet you'd have a system much like modern Arabic. I.e. that the 'official' language is common all over the place, but the local dialects are different languages in all but name.

Did you see the study that shows that 'literary Arabic' lights up the 'foreign language' section of the brain of Arabic speakers? Someone referenced it in Chat.

 

[Keenir]

Is there any way that Europe could have developed a common language,

Jews all over Europe could speak Hebrew.

 

[Eurofed]

Cash

Your probably touched on the only really likely case for it to occur. A slightly more successful early Roman empire that advances to ultimately the Elbe-Bohemia-Cathaprians line, which it actually got quite close to. This brings so much of Europe under imperial control and shortens the defencive line that the empire is likely to last somewhat longer. You might well end up as a European China, with a continuous cultural identity which more successfully integrates and converts any invaders. As such the Roman-Latin culture is likely to become even more dominant on the continent and hence swamp just about everything else. If you can avoid a Christianity type religion gaining power even better as you negate one of the most divisive influences. [The down side is without the division and conflict so brought you might well not get the development of modern European ideas of human rights and identities].

Steve

The point is very good, except that the border would be the Vistula-Carpathians-Dniester, which is the best natural border Rome can achieve in Europe. Elbe-Bohemia actally does not gain Rome that much strategically and it is very unlikely to be the final border if comquest of Germania succeeds.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

Jews all over Europe could speak Hebrew.

Except that Hebrew before 1948 is regarded as a sacred tongue and not as something that one uses for day-to-day speech. Even in the days of the Kingdoms and of Roman rule the common language was Aramaic rather than Hebrew.

 

[Lazar]

What Stevep and Dathi said. It would have to involve a Roman POD, and the best you could hope for is a situation like China or the Arab world.

 

[Mike Stearns]

How about a POD where Rome invents movable type and the printing press? The Romans already had access to parchment and papyrus, they have not shortage of things to write on. With access to movable type, the Romans could post imperial proclomations and decrees in every village. In order to be able to read them, the villagers would be forced learn latin.

 

[wormyguy]

How about a POD where Rome invents movable type and the printing press? The Romans already had access to parchment and papyrus, they have not shortage of things to write on. With access to movable type, the Romans could post imperial proclomations and decrees in every village. In order to be able to read them, the villagers would be forced learn latin.

Or they might simply mandate that schooling in the eastern provinces be done in Latin.

 

[stevep]

Except that 'Christendom' was the single unifying factor in OTL Europe.

Have to disagree here. There were regional tensions before it rose to power but they were frequently temporary and could be overcome. However once doctrine got involved, tied in with politics and power struggles, it became impossible to paper over the cracks.

Even if the Roman Empire had somehow survived, I'll bet you'd have a system much like modern Arabic. I.e. that the 'official' language is common all over the place, but the local dialects are different languages in all but name.

Quite possibly. Not sure how you would hold together so large a territory without modern communications. Probably a lot of regional drift as well as survival of previous languages to a greater or lesser degree influencing the language.

Did you see the study that shows that 'literary Arabic' lights up the 'foreign language' section of the brain of Arabic speakers? Someone referenced it in Chat.

Not seen this but sounds interesting.

Steve

 

[Eurofed]

With a couple of PoDs (one ensuring the development of a more stable political system, averting the 3rd century crisis, and one ensuring the conquest of Germania Magna/Bohemia/Dacia and Mesopotamia -optimally Persia too- in the 1st-2nd centuries), the lasting success and assimilation of Europe by the Roman Empire is quite doable.

This would lead to the permanent cultural and political assimilation of European ruling elites and middle classes in the cultural Latin/Greek Romasphere. Lasting political unity would ensure that regional drifts and remnants of pre-conquest langauges would remain confined to the level of lower class dialects, which mass education since the Industrial Age would root tout. The OTL situation of Chinese and Arabic would be the lower end of the plausible final result. However, given that alphabetic writing makes mass education much more easier, it is to be expected that the Romasphere would be much more culturally cohese than the Sinasphere and Arabsphere, and the end resuly would be akin to the OTL Anglosphere.

The only variation from the OP request is that modern Roman Europe, Mediterranean, and Middle East would keep two languages, Latin and Greek.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

This would lead to the permanent cultural and political assimilation of European ruling elites and middle classes in the cultural Latin/Greek Romasphere. Lasting political unity would ensure that regional drifts and remnants of pre-conquest langauges would remain confined to the level of lower class dialects, which mass education since the Industrial Age would root tout. The OTL situation of Chinese and Arabic would be the lower end of the plausible final result. However, given that alphabetic writing makes mass education much more easier, it is to be expected that the Romasphere would be much more culturally cohese than the Sinasphere and Arabsphere, and the end resuly would be akin to the OTL Anglosphere.

???
Arabic isn't written with an alphabet? Say what? Also, IIRC, isn't every Muslim male supposed to be able to read the Quran? How would you get higher literacy than that?

Unless you have people moving from one part of the Empire to another, I don't see any barrier to the evolution of local languages, whether they be recognized or not. The Arabic example, I would suggest is the BEST case, not the worst.

 

[Jape]

Best chance would probably be that alongside official use of Latin/Greek that a stabilised Roman Empire will cause a general Romance family of dialects, greatly weakening Germanic and Celtic tongues. The longer this lasts the more chance of this being more cohesive but ultimately by OTL's level of develpoment you'll probably still have a Gallic Latin derivitive, Germanian, Hispanian etc. still better than what we have now and certainly creating more of a European connection.

 

[Eurofed]

???
Arabic isn't written with an alphabet? Say what? Also, IIRC, isn't every Muslim male supposed to be able to read the Quran? How would you get higher literacy than that?

True in theory, and my point about the alphabet was about separate oral languages in the Sinasphere but I expect that a surviving Rome would remain reman rather more prosperous and politically cohese than OTL Arab world during its Industrial Age, and as such would make a real committment to mass education that would be much more successful than the corresponding Arab world.

Unless you have people moving from one part of the Empire to another, I don't see any barrier to the evolution of local languages, whether they be recognized or not. The Arabic example, I would suggest is the BEST case, not the worst.

Mass education in the official language in a unitary and prosperous state. You neglect the effects of that. Therefore I stand by my judgement: Anglosphere as the (rather more likely) best case, Arabsphere as the (rather unlikely) worst case.

 

[Keenir]

Except that Hebrew before 1948 is regarded as a sacred tongue and not as something that one uses for day-to-day speech. Even in the days of the Kingdoms and of Roman rule the common language was Aramaic rather than Hebrew.

he said a common language - something they all have in common.

 

[Mohatma]

No Tower of Babel construction

 

[Eurofed]

No Tower of Babel construction

It is not a given, but it is a wholly plausible and indeed very likely assumption that in a fully successful Rome TL Christianity is butterflied out or de-wanked to the status of yet another obscure mystery cult in the crowded religious fringe of the Empire (since the most plausible PoDs to ensure this outcome have to occur rather early in the Empire's history, most likely in the 1st century and optimally in the Caesar-August timespan), and Islam is all but sure to be butterflied away. Judaism is rather more likely to survive as a fringe minority national religion, tolerated since it leans to behave itself after the revolts and harsh repressions of the 1st-2nd centuries CE, but with very little spread or influence beyond its own national base. As such, Jewish mythology shall be little known beyond the circles of religious scholars, and in the common opinion shall laughed off as being disproven by the triumphant universalist call of the Roman (and Chinese, since Rome's success most likely induces China's as well) imperial ideology and culture.

 

[Theodoric]

How's uber-Rome going to shop Greek being the dominant language in the eastern Roman Empire? You can't say it's positions is much stronger in that area than OTL, as that's barely possible.

 

[Lugal]

Even with a longer lasting Rome, dialectization is unavoidable without modern media (radio, TV). The best situation would be a diglossia with the learned people speaking classical Latin and everyone speaking their own dialects at home.

 

[Eurofed]

How's uber-Rome going to shop Greek being the dominant language in the eastern Roman Empire?

Indeed, it is not. A successful Roman Empire is surely going to be a blingual Latin/Greek area.