Challenge: Design Lower Panther

Most would agree that the Panther was one of the better tanks of WWII--lighter and more mobile than the Tigers, with almost as much armor and firepower, but it was still rather heavy for its armor and weaponry, in large part because it was designed with a rather high, deep hull.

The Soviets were able to "scrunch down" the hull of the T-34 and made the T-44 with it, a tank of the same weight and armament but much more armor, which directly led to the T-54, arguably the most successful medium/MBT in history. What would AFV history have been like had the Nazis or someone copying them did the same with the Panther?

So, here is the challenge. Make the hull of the Panther appreciably (let's say 10cm or more) shallower without reducing the armament or armor and maintaining the basic design (front-wheel drive, rear engine, torsion-bar suspension, mid-mounted turret).

Is it possible?

ArmchairPhilosopher

Edit: Would a lower Panther design be possible before V-E Day and would it have any particular butterflies in the war?
 
Also, how about the same thing for the Sherman? The Sherman was a great medium tank, fully the equal of the T-34, but it didn't evolve into anything (sadly, in my opinion). I feel that a lower Sherman of same weight (and heavier armor) could have remained competitive for decades.
 
Also, how about the same thing for the Sherman? The Sherman was a great medium tank, fully the equal of the T-34, but it didn't evolve into anything (sadly, in my opinion). I feel that a lower Sherman of same weight (and heavier armor) could have remained competitive for decades.


I don't know how to change the Panther, but I read somewhere that the Sherman could have had been smaller if they hadn't used a radial aircraft engine for the first models. Maybe if the design is first made with the Ford GAA engine then it could have been smaller.
 

NothingNow

Banned
So, here is the challenge. Make the hull of the Panther appreciably (let's say 10cm or more) shallower without reducing the armament or armor and maintaining the basic design (front-wheel drive, rear engine, torsion-bar suspension, mid-mounted turret).

It's Not really possible.

Also, how about the same thing for the Sherman? The Sherman was a great medium tank, fully the equal of the T-34, but it didn't evolve into anything (sadly, in my opinion). I feel that a lower Sherman of same weight (and heavier armor) could have remained competitive for decades.
The Sherman actually remained a useful tank until the mid seventies. Still, with an engine like the Meteor, and a couple of tweaks to the driver's position and ammo stowage, dropping the roof by a few inches should be possible.
 
It's Not really possible.
Why not? I seem to have seen something on a WWII forum many years ago that there was some obscure directive late in the war to drop the King Tiger by some 17cm (that sounds like a stretch, but 10 should be doable).

The Sherman actually remained a useful tank until the mid seventies. Still, with an engine like the Meteor, and a couple of tweaks to the driver's position and ammo stowage, dropping the roof by a few inches should be possible.
A few inches and the weight saved therein could mean much thicker armor.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Why not? I seem to have seen something on a WWII forum many years ago that there was some obscure directive late in the war to drop the King Tiger by some 17cm (that sounds like a stretch, but 10 should be doable).

No. Given the suspension used, the Panther was literally as short as it could get.
 

NothingNow

Banned
T44/54 and from there on out all had torsion bar also and were about 60% as high as the Panther.

Yeah, but they didn't have the Interleaved roadwheels and Double Torsion bar system used on the Panther and Tiger II, that literally covered the entire floor of the Panther. If you want to lower it, use Horstman Suspension, and ditch the interleaved roadwheels. You should then be able to drop the height by a good 250cm without changing anything else.
 
Didn't think of that but I guess it makes sense, the more complex system was necessitated by the high weights of the German tanks, which was itself caused by their height (in part), right?
 
That, and Hitler's insistance on heavy Armor for everything!

The JS-2 was over 20 tons lighter than the King Tiger, but almost as well-armored (and much of the gap was due to inferior-quality Soviet cast armor, although late-war German forged armor was missing many key alloys), and its main gun was much more powerful for the antipersonnel role (though much inferior against tanks).
 
So, here is the challenge. Make the hull of the Panther appreciably (let's say 10cm or more) shallower without reducing the armament or armor and maintaining the basic design (front-wheel drive, rear engine, torsion-bar suspension, mid-mounted turret).

Is it possible?

ArmchairPhilosopher

Edit: Would a lower Panther design be possible before V-E Day and would it have any particular butterflies in the war?

I think it would be possible to reduce the height and maintain the specification you mention by mounting the torsion bars longitudinally and externally, as in the Leopard tank for example. I think there were also a few Jagdtiger heavy tank destroyers with a longitudinal torsion bar suspension designed by Porsche. It does reduce the height, but I do not know by how much. It seems to have other advantages too: an escape hatch in the floor of the hull becomes possible, and if I remember correctly, both production and repair of the suspension are made easier.
When this feature could have been introduced, I do not know.
I doubt that introducing it would have large effects on the course of WW II.
 
Not to mention that the turrets were too small to fit three people, forcing the tank's commander to do double-duty as the loader.

And it was WHAT year before they put a radio in every tank? And what year before they put a second one in command tracks?

Though I guess when even on paper your "battalion" only has 21 tanks you need radios less than, say, an American battalion with 76...
 
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