Challenge: Czechia/Bohemia ruling over Austria, not the opposite

abc123

Banned
So, the question is: how can we have situation where Bohemia ( with Moravia and Silesia ) ruls over Austria ( Upper and Lower ), Carinthia, Styria, Salzburg and Tyrol, with Prague as capital?

So, country that is basicly czech one. Czech language and culture dominant, Czech kings etc.
:confused:

Maybe if Otokar II wins?
 
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abc123

Banned
So, the question is: how can we have situation where Bohemia ( with Moravia and Silesia ) ruls over Austria ( Upper and Lower ), Carinthia, Styria, Salzburg and Tyrol, with Prague as capital?

So, country that is basicly czech one. Czech language and culture dominant, Czech kings etc.
:confused:

Maybe if Otokar II wins?

Basicly, I want something like this:

560px-Duernkrut3.jpg
 
Ottokar is probably your best bet. I don't think any kings after him were in a position to do that with any PODs I can think of - it might be an eventual consequence of some, but I can't think of anything leading direction there without having to have things favoring it happen along the way.

Out of curiosity, where's the map from?
 
Hmm, well I actually ended up keeping the Stem Duchy of Bavaria independent and it then merged with Bohemia and was lost to Frankish influences so modern (1140) Bavaria is basically a slightly Frankish Czech dominated multi-cultural state.
 

abc123

Banned
Hmm, well I actually ended up keeping the Stem Duchy of Bavaria independent and it then merged with Bohemia and was lost to Frankish influences so modern (1140) Bavaria is basically a slightly Frankish Czech dominated multi-cultural state.

OK, let's speak about what consequences would be if Otokar II did win in Marchfedl and Rudolf was dead?
Would he suceed to become a Emperor? Confiscation of Habsburg lands?
 
Well it was only after this battle that the empire regained the fiefs Austria and Styria, which after a few negotiations could be granted by king of the Romans Rudolph of Habsburg to his sons (in 1282).

However emperor Rudolph II of Habsburg also ruled his Habsburg domains from Prague.
 

abc123

Banned
Well it was only after this battle that the empire regained the fiefs Austria and Styria, which after a few negotiations could be granted by king of the Romans Rudolph of Habsburg to his sons (in 1282).

However emperor Rudolph II of Habsburg also ruled his Habsburg domains from Prague.


OK, let's say that POD is that Ottokar II doesn't attack Hungary in 1273. So there's no quarrel between him and Ladislaus IV of Hungary and Ladislaus IV because of that doesn't support Rudolph.

So, Rudolph looses the battle, and he is killed.

Now, in 1278. Ottokar II was 45 years old. He could surely live a few years more.
During that time, he would regained Austria, Styria, Carinthia and Carniola.

But, what after that?
 
Ottokar II could be recognized by the empire as the 'rightful' owner of these fiefs, although it will still be hard to get elected as king of the Romans. The reason for this is, that the other electors already felt that Ottokar II was too strong, which made (the relatively weak) Rudolph of Habsburg a good alternative.

Even or especially after the defeat of Rudolph and Ottokar's victory, the other electors might be even more inclined to elect a neutral candidate with a weak personal powerbase, which was how Rudolph of Habsburg, Adolph of Nassau and Henry of Luxemburg all started out (with Adolph as the least succesful IOTL).

A military victory isn't enough for the election of Ottokar II as king of the Romans, it will need to be followed by a diplomatic and political victory.
 
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abc123

Banned
Ottokar II could be recognized by the empire as the 'rightful' owner of these fiefs, although it will still be hard to get elected as king of the Romans. The reason for this is, that the other electors already felt that Ottokar II was too strong, which made (the relatively weak) Rudolph of Habsburg a good alternative.

Even or especially after the defeat of Rudolph and Ottokar's victory, the other electors might be even more inclined to elect a neutral candidate with a weak personal powerbase, which was how Rudolph of Habsburg, Adolph of Nassau and Henry of Luxemburg all started out (with Adolph as the least succesful IOTL).

A military victory isn't enough for the election of Ottokar II as king of the Romans, it will need to be followed by a diplomatic and political victory.

Yes, I know that.
So, now we are on a crossroads.
Czech King becoming a German King/Roman Emperor, or someone else becoming a Emperor?
Maybe Henry of Luxembourg? They are small enough for other electors, and far enough from Bohemia to be acceptable for Ottokar?
 
IIRC IOTL Ottokar felt insulted by the fact, that a lowly count was elected king of the Romans in favor of him. If Ottokar really wants this election, them IMO he would have to give assurances and other concessions to his fellow electors to lessen the threat of his power for them or at least give them something in return.
 

abc123

Banned
IIRC IOTL Ottokar felt insulted by the fact, that a lowly count was elected king of the Romans in favor of him. If Ottokar really wants this election, them IMO he would have to give assurances and other concessions to his fellow electors to lessen the threat of his power for them or at least give them something in return.

But what to offer to the electors?
 
But what to offer to the electors?

Privileges and guarantees that Ottokar wouldn't abuse his power as king of the Romans (the emperor-elect who needs the imperial coronation from the Pope) at least not in hurtful way for the electors;). Maybe settling some disputes, marital alliances and a promise to respect the elective nature of the empire etc.
 

abc123

Banned
Privileges and guarantees that Ottokar wouldn't abuse his power as king of the Romans (the emperor-elect who needs the imperial coronation from the Pope) at least not in hurtful way for the electors;). Maybe settling some disputes, marital alliances and a promise to respect the elective nature of the empire etc.

Somehow I think that will not be enough. Maybe ceding some territories?
 
Somehow I think that will not be enough. Maybe ceding some territories?

Given your original question, he'll actually need more territories the archbishopric of Salzburg and the county of Tyrol, although in Salzburg just as in the patriarchate of Aquileia Bohemia could end up having them in their sphere of influence.
OTOH Ottokar II doesn't have to be the one to finish the job, maybe again like the Habsburgs IOTL he's willing to give the less important duchy of Carinthia (and the margraviate of Carniola and the Windic March) to someone else on the condition that the Premyslid will inherit these, if the house of the newly created duke dies out (which was the condition under which Rudolph of Habsburg granted Carinthia to the count of Tyrol).
Or Ottokar is willing to restore (maybe under the (inheritance)condition I mentioned) Philipp of Spanheim (OTL died in 1279) to Carinthia, Carniola and the Windic March; Philipp was the brother of Ulrich III from whom Ottokar II had gained those territories.
 
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