CHALLENGE: Create Britain a Superpower...

[stevep]

Actually it doesn't strike me as particularly difficult at all. the pre-WWI UK did not yet have universal sufferage and even with the somewhat broad property qualifications that were applied (~40% of Englishmen could vote) almost no Africans or Indians would have been able to vote. The addition of a literacy test would have removed any threat that the Empire was about to be overrun by its colonials.

Of course, as attitudes changed the franchise would be opened to more of His (I had to correct my natural tendency to say Her) Majesty's subjects of all colors, but early 20th century imperialists need not recognize that initially.

It's definitely an interesting idea. You would have to largely remove the racial discrimination by a lot of the white settlers. I.e. while the black population could be disenfranchised for the moment continuing to treat them with such open contempt would be fatal. Coupled with making jobs and social status available for those who take up western education and demonstrate their loyalty to the empire and you could build up a substantial loyalist bloc. Coupled with the tribal divide affecting other elements full British citizenship could be seen as the best option not just for individuals but also for the population as a whole by many.

In the longer term you would have the problem of managing the adjustment of attitudes to accepting racial equality. Also the fact that most resources would still be owned by the relatively small minority unless there were major changes to reduce inequality.

However if you could manage to make one or two stable dominions in southern and eastern Africa you could add very valuable resources to the 'British' empire. The area could be very rich in terms of minerals, potential industrial wealth etc. Also they could quite possibly absorb areas such as the former Portuguese colonies and the Belgium Congo.

Steve


Steve

 

[Archangel]

Also they could quite possibly absorb areas such as the former Portuguese colonies and the Belgium Congo.

I'm sorry, but no matter how pro-British the Portuguese may be, I doubt they would sell the African Colonies. The last time a Portuguese government accepted Britain's claims over territories claimed by Portugal, the monarchy fell some years later due to popular resentment. This time, any claims/pressure over territories actually ruled by Portugal, may arise some opposition to Britain.

 

[Nick Sumner]

The last time a Portuguese government accepted Britain's claims over territories claimed by Portugal, the monarchy fell some years later due to popular resentment.

Forgive my ignorance but when was that? And which territories?

 

[birdy]

It's definitely an interesting idea. You would have to largely remove the racial discrimination by a lot of the white settlers. I.e. while the black population could be disenfranchised for the moment continuing to treat them with such open contempt would be fatal. Coupled with making jobs and social status available for those who take up western education and demonstrate their loyalty to the empire and you could build up a substantial loyalist bloc. Coupled with the tribal divide affecting other elements full British citizenship could be seen as the best option not just for individuals but also for the population as a whole by many.

In the longer term you would have the problem of managing the adjustment of attitudes to accepting racial equality. Also the fact that most resources would still be owned by the relatively small minority unless there were major changes to reduce inequality.

However if you could manage to make one or two stable dominions in southern and eastern Africa you could add very valuable resources to the 'British' empire. The area could be very rich in terms of minerals, potential industrial wealth etc. Also they could quite possibly absorb areas such as the former Portuguese colonies and the Belgium Congo.

Steve


Steve

Actually it doesn't strike me as particularly difficult at all. the pre-WWI UK did not yet have universal sufferage and even with the somewhat broad property qualifications that were applied (~40% of Englishmen could vote) almost no Africans or Indians would have been able to vote. The addition of a literacy test would have removed any threat that the Empire was about to be overrun by its colonials.

Of course, as attitudes changed the franchise would be opened to more of His (I had to correct my natural tendency to say Her) Majesty's subjects of all colors, but early 20th century imperialists need not recognize that initially.

Glad you both like the idea, having a British Federal Union or some such form around 1900 has always been an idea i like. Its just difficult coming up with a suitable POD. Assuming Canada and Australia are in the Union i think 'Britain' could be a superpower today albiet prehaps the 2nd or 3rd superpower.

Assuming decolonization occurs- such a state could draw the former colonies into a British led Commonwealth with real influence in the world.

 

[stevep]

I'm sorry, but no matter how pro-British the Portuguese may be, I doubt they would sell the African Colonies. The last time a Portuguese government accepted Britain's claims over territories claimed by Portugal, the monarchy fell some years later due to popular resentment. This time, any claims/pressure over territories actually ruled by Portugal, may arise some opposition to Britain.

Archangel

Sorry, feeling a bit tired by the time I got around to that so didn't put it too well. Not thinking as much of a carve up of the Portuguese colonies, like the famous agreement with Germany in ~1912. More that after they become independent, or possibly as part of the independence struggle they may well fall into the sphere of the African Dominions. After all, if they have largely solved the problems of racial tension, which is rather a pre-requist, then they may have strong feelings about a bitter conflict on their borders, especially with economic impacts, say many thousands of refugees, destruction of extensive investments, as well as any humanitarian or political factors. [Think of the French intervention in Mexico and the US reaction except that the population of the African dominions would probably feel a lot more incentive to intervene in the Portuguese colonies].

Steve

 

[stevep]

Glad you both like the idea, having a British Federal Union or some such form around 1900 has always been an idea i like. Its just difficult coming up with a suitable POD. Assuming Canada and Australia are in the Union i think 'Britain' could be a superpower today albiet prehaps the 2nd or 3rd superpower.

Assuming decolonization occurs- such a state could draw the former colonies into a British led Commonwealth with real influence in the world.

Birdy

Its definitely a very attractive idea for maintaining a greater source of power in which Britain plays a major part. I think the exact development would depend very much on relations with the US as the two would be the default primarily naval powers, hence there would be some rivarily there. [Both would rely on naval power for interacting with the wider world. If you have a different TL in which the US doesn't attract as much immigration as it has the last 60 years or so there would be a much smaller gap between the two, even if the British Federation didn't maintain substantial Africa or India territories. It would also of course play a large role in events in Europe but probably in the traditional balance of power role. Could make for some complicated situations over the century.

Steve

 

[birdy]

Birdy

Its definitely a very attractive idea for maintaining a greater source of power in which Britain plays a major part. I think the exact development would depend very much on relations with the US as the two would be the default primarily naval powers, hence there would be some rivarily there. [Both would rely on naval power for interacting with the wider world. If you have a different TL in which the US doesn't attract as much immigration as it has the last 60 years or so there would be a much smaller gap between the two, even if the British Federation didn't maintain substantial Africa or India territories. It would also of course play a large role in events in Europe but probably in the traditional balance of power role. Could make for some complicated situations over the century.

Steve

I agree, for some reason whenever i envision this scenario i think of OTL except with a Federal Union of Britain/Dominions. Of course the spinoffs would be immense so nothing like OTL.

Example- Say WW1 happens in mostly the same as OTL, Would a Federal Britain with the resources of Canada, Oz and Southern Africa accept anything like the Washington treaty?, if not then what...... The list goes on- probably why i havent attempted to write a TL.

I wonder whether Southern Ireland would still seccede.

 

[Archangel]

Archangel

Sorry, feeling a bit tired by the time I got around to that so didn't put it too well. Not thinking as much of a carve up of the Portuguese colonies, like the famous agreement with Germany in ~1912. More that after they become independent, or possibly as part of the independence struggle they may well fall into the sphere of the African Dominions. After all, if they have largely solved the problems of racial tension, which is rather a pre-requist, then they may have strong feelings about a bitter conflict on their borders, especially with economic impacts, say many thousands of refugees, destruction of extensive investments, as well as any humanitarian or political factors. [Think of the French intervention in Mexico and the US reaction except that the population of the African dominions would probably feel a lot more incentive to intervene in the Portuguese colonies].

Steve

That would be feasible and might even have the support of the Portuguese residents in the former Portuguese territories, specially if it happens during the decolonization.

 

[stevep]

I agree, for some reason whenever i envision this scenario i think of OTL except with a Federal Union of Britain/Dominions. Of course the spinoffs would be immense so nothing like OTL.

Example- Say WW1 happens in mostly the same as OTL, Would a Federal Britain with the resources of Canada, Oz and Southern Africa accept anything like the Washington treaty?, if not then what...... The list goes on- probably why i havent attempted to write a TL.

I wonder whether Southern Ireland would still seccede.

Birdy

It might well still happen. There was the concern that a new naval race, which was feared if no treaty occurred, would both cause very high expenditure on an already strained economy and might even make a new war unlikely. Also the US was insistent, OTL on treating the various states as part of the British empire and refusing them any actual separate identity so if there was an actual Federation it would only have strengthened this viewpoint.

Also the dominions had pretty low defence expenditure so their closer inclusion in the defence of the empire would be relatively minor unless you had the dominions increasing defence spending to something like the British level. [Which I suspect would be largely ASB].

I think southern Ireland would probably succeed unless WWI was significantly shorter and more successful for the allies. As such the Catholic loyalists and moderates would have been in a stronger position as opposed to the hard line nationalists and also the government in London would have been less divided - presuming no deep split in the Liberal party say.

Personally I think either OTL or the ATL would have been better with no Washington Treaty but recognise that's a view that some would disagree with.

Steve

 

[Watching the World]

In 1914 Britain was already a superpower so the aim would be to keep being a superpower

The British Empire already existed but instead of a talking shop turn it into proper organisation.
This would create a federation that would be responsible for:
1) Trade Policy
Empire First
2) Armed Forces
All Armed Forces combined with unified equipment and troops are totally inter-mixed
Therefore
3) Foreign Affairs
This would solve internal problem such as Ireland as they could gain self-governance easily
4) Empire Security
Unfortunately all successful countries/organisations survive by keeping an eye on both internal and extrenal threats

All other matters would be dealt with by the countries own governments

The 1st World War would actually be helpful in forcing the different parts of the Empire to work together for the common good.

 

[Blue Max]

Here's a whole different idea of how to pull this one off:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1990795,00.html


Suppose that this works, and France and the United Kingdom unite! Resultant Super United Kingdom (Man, that's a bad acronym) would be a pretty serious player economically, a superpower perhaps? I'm not sure this gets the UK strong enough to win, but it would probably put them in the top 3 economic powers of their time, ahead of Japan and Germany.

Just wondering...

 

[birdy]

Here's a whole different idea of how to pull this one off:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1990795,00.html


Suppose that this works, and France and the United Kingdom unite! Resultant Super United Kingdom (Man, that's a bad acronym) would be a pretty serious player economically, a superpower perhaps? I'm not sure this gets the UK strong enough to win, but it would probably put them in the top 3 economic powers of their time, ahead of Japan and Germany.

Just wondering...

Really interesting prospect, wouldnt have happened but still......

Weather or not we'd be a superpower is up for debate- certainly not as strong as the USA, but a 3rd smaller superpower is possible.

I can see us being ahead of Germany economically, possibly not Japan.
A fairly big military, enough to intervene without US support in at least 1 major operation around the globe, possibly 2 depending on the situation.

 

[Wendell]

Here's a whole different idea of how to pull this one off:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1990795,00.html


Suppose that this works, and France and the United Kingdom unite! Resultant Super United Kingdom (Man, that's a bad acronym) would be a pretty serious player economically, a superpower perhaps? I'm not sure this gets the UK strong enough to win, but it would probably put them in the top 3 economic powers of their time, ahead of Japan and Germany.

Just wondering...

Had they merged fully, setting aside the numerous problems in doing so, who would have gained the vacant permanent U.N. Security Council seat caused by this scenario?

 

[Blue Max]

If the UK and France Merged, they'd probably agree on a friend to give it to. Either Belgium, a reluctant friend in both of the world wars, or Canada as the No. 2 in the UK sphere of influence.

Q: How awesome does UK need to be to become a "Superpower"? Is UK + France not enough?

 

[alt_historian]

If the UK and France Merged, they'd probably agree on a friend to give it to. Either Belgium, a reluctant friend in both of the world wars, or Canada as the No. 2 in the UK sphere of influence.

Q: How awesome does UK need to be to become a "Superpower"? Is UK + France not enough?

If I recall, when the UN Security Council was being arranged, it was sold as being balanced between the different continents, although it wasn't particularly so. You had the US representing the Americas, or N America; China for Asia; USSR for Europe (and Asia); Britain and France both for Europe. If a permanent seat became vacant like this, might the non-European members see it as a chance to rebalance things a little? Maybe give a seat to an African nation, or maybe South American?