Challenge: create a jewish Kingdom in medieval Europe

Create a stable and long lasting jewish Kingdom in Europe, please i want a king so no Khagan/Khan/Czar that Should excluded the Khazar Khaganate.

Bonus points:

Created by ethnic jews (no conversion by the leader or forced conversion).
 
Kasimir of Poland could give a specific track of land to a Jewish leader for Jews to settle in.
Eventually raised to the level of slachta. Successfully wins independence later on from the Commonwealth. Consumed by a larger power by the late 18th.
 
Create a stable and long lasting jewish Kingdom in Europe, please i want a king so no Khagan/Khan/Czar that Should excluded the Khazar Khaganate.

Bonus points:

Created by ethnic jews (no conversion by the leader or forced conversion).
Whats an "ethnic jew " and how is he different from a converted jew ? Judaism is a religion and people from many places intermarried.
 
I was thinking about a old and established community a very traditional one, that they have claimed that they immigrate after the roman persecution or be one of the lost tribes.
 
Whats an "ethnic jew " and how is he different from a converted jew ? Judaism is a religion and people from many places intermarried.
Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion. That is because it is an ethnic religion for an ethnicity that is open to converts.
A similar concept would be the practice of some Amerindian nations "adopting" people into their nations.
 
If you are going by ethnic Jews then the only one that qualify is one of the 12 tribes of Israel, which by the medieval times would've been diluted to insignificance as modern DNA tests have proven.
 
If you are going by ethnic Jews then the only one that qualify is one of the 12 tribes of Israel, which by the medieval times would've been diluted to insignificance as modern DNA tests have proven.
Not really, modern day Jews are still ethnic Jews. As I said in my previous post, ethnicity does not neccesarily have to coincide with ancestry/genetics.
 
When Sviatoslav the Great defeats the Khazars he arranges for himself or for one of his sons to marry the daughter of the Khazar Khan, instead of converting to his mother's Christianity Vladimir converts to his wife's Judaism. The Khazars are integrated into the Kyivan Rus, which is a multi religious state, though overtime becomes predominantly Jewish.
 
When Sviatoslav the Great defeats the Khazars he arranges for himself or for one of his sons to marry the daughter of the Khazar Khan, instead of converting to his mother's Christianity Vladimir converts to his wife's Judaism. The Khazars are integrated into the Kyivan Rus, which is a multi religious state, though overtime becomes predominantly Jewish.
I am doubtful that Vladimir would convert to Judaism just because it is his wife's religion. IOTL, he initially was a pagan but there was a time where he had sent out emissaries to the various religious groups. There are some stories about how he thought that the Jews were weak for losing their homeland and how he could not abide by the Muslims ban on alcohol. Also, there is a mention about how the emissary reported the city of Constantinople as heaven on earth. However, ultimately Vladimir's decision was based on politics. Why would he choose Khazaria over Byzantium?
 
I am doubtful that Vladimir would convert to Judaism just because it is his wife's religion. IOTL, he initially was a pagan but there was a time where he had sent out emissaries to the various religious groups. There are some stories about how he thought that the Jews were weak for losing their homeland and how he could not abide by the Muslims ban on alcohol. Also, there is a mention about how the emissary reported the city of Constantinople as heaven on earth. However, ultimately Vladimir's decision was based on politics. Why would he choose Khazaria over Byzantium?
Perhaps, he is in some conflict with the Byzantines at that time, also, if he/Sviatoslav has already conquered Khazaria they are in the same/similar situation that led to their conversion to Judaism, important trading partners with Muslim and Christian world, better to be something neutral. Of course, at this point in time this isn't as important. I don't think his conversion was likely, however I think the creation of a Jewish European state (that is not Khazaria) is fairly unlikely.

The Khazars as the only Jewish European state in history (1 of four Jewish states in history IIRC), other than them it is fairly unlikely for anyone else to convert to Judaism. Kyivan Rus is the most likely after the Khazars, that does not mean it is particularly likely.
 
Would some sort of bizarre Jewish crusader state set up by Christian rulers as a dumping ground for their nation's Jews work?
 
Would some sort of bizarre Jewish crusader state set up by Christian rulers as a dumping ground for their nation's Jews work?
Unlikely to happen unless their is large Jewish support for the Crusades, and a very tolerant Pope. At this point the Catholic church by and large was very tolerant towards the Jews, and many Bishops and Catholics defended them against Pogroms during the Crusades in Germany. However, I don't see why Jews would support a Crusade to the same extent as the average Christian.
 
A Jewish state in Europe is pretty ASB. If somehow Khazaria remains independent for longer it will still be absorbed in to the Russian Empire. Geographically it may be enlarged and all the Jews who OTL ended up in the Pale of Settlement dumped there. If the Jewish Khazar Oblast (or whatever) has a border touching OTL's Ottoman Empire or Iran after WWI and the Russian Revolution you might see them break away like some other areas did, and very possibly being left alone (let the damned Jews go away). Unlike the Baltic states who got screwed by WWII, this state may not be someplace where Stalin is expanding borders and could manage to stay independent. Basically the Jewish population of Europe at any time from the Christianization of the Empire (and subsequent Christianization of Europe) is scattered and nowhere a significant proportion of the population. While some Popes may have been more tolerant than others, most were not and the local priests and bishops tended to be quite antisemitic as well as the locals (there were always exceptions). You realize that very early on after the fall of the western empire Jews were, in most areas, not allowed to own land, so the concept of allowing Jews to have some sort of state falls flat.

The Khazaria scenario works because its in a fringe area with low population and, by circumstance, the nobility which is Jewish and a large percent of the local population Jewish (hard to know what the split was). Central or western Europe, no way.
 

Towelie

Banned
If there is to be one, it must be in Eastern Europe. In the West, the Jews were frequently in areas right next to ecclesiastical or political power because they could depend on protection that way and fulfill their economically necessary purpose (moneylending and banking, mercantile services, etc.) that Christians could not. There would not have been a chance for some kind of Imperial charter for the Jews to own, say, a duchy or county. They were dispersed and urban for the most part.

So when the Jewish movement eastwards begins, I suppose it is possible that enough of them could settle in an area near modern day Poland or Lithuania, and be granted land there. Perhaps the Teutonic Order could set aside areas of Lithuania for the Jews specifically (medieval theology held that there needed to be Jews for the Second Coming to occur, and therefore, some took it upon themselves to safeguard Jewish communities) after killing the Pagans.

To be honest, this seems kind of ASB.

But if we are going to look into ASB options, so be it. The Jews expelled from England, along with persecuted Rhineland Jews, could have hired mercenaries to carve out a kingdom for them in, say, the Faroe Islands or Iceland. Lets pretend the Pope is pissed at Norway and the Jews ask him for an area to stay and he comes up with this. It would have been isolated from the rest of Europe and Norwegian attempts at reclaiming the territory might be hard to enforce if it came at a period of internal strife. I mean, this Kingdom is going to need to be isolated geographically otherwise it will get swallowed up quickly.
 

Towelie

Banned
Would some sort of bizarre Jewish crusader state set up by Christian rulers as a dumping ground for their nation's Jews work?
I suppose if the Church repeals the anti-usury laws and rulers suddenly find the presence of their Jews to be an issue rather than a benefit, this could be possible. Perhaps it could be seen as some kind of investment to form a Jewish vassal state somewhere else.

The Jews are not going to be encouraged by secular authorities who needed Jewish banking activities and moneylending activities to have a functional economy to go and settle elsewhere, however.
 
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Deleted member 97083

The pagan kings of Lithuania could convert to Judaism for the same reasons as the Khazars did.
 
The pagan kings of Lithuania could convert to Judaism for the same reasons as the Khazars did.
There was talk about this in the discussion thread for The Silver Knight, and the conclusion was that it's a massive stretch. The situation in Lithuania was very different from the one in Khazaria, and that situation encouraged a Christian conversion.
 
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