Challenge : Contest air superiority from F-15C

Both Iraqis or Saudis have no qualms I'm pretty sure plus 40 or so commandoes are hardly going to make a dent
Can try it initially but chance of it working would be pretty low and I would not rest my whole air campaign plan on a scheme like this
That's why I would rather go for the pilots. And I would go for multiple attacks on a single night with covert ops.
 
Both Iraqis or Saudis have no qualms
Do we really think the Iraqis or Saudis would fire on a european airliner only slightly off its flight plan with a broken radio and smoke coming out in peacetime? I think the risk to the people involved of being purged in response to placate the European government or oil/defence/banking company chartering the flight might be very serious?
I'm pretty sure plus 40 or so commandoes are hardly going to make a dent
We are only talking about 3+ AWACS and tankers ie large fragile aircraft parked outside, even a few commandos with M72s/RPG7s/Charlie G (even better if they have TOW type system) from a distance might hit them sufficiently to stop them flying for a few days? If they actually get right to them then incendiaries and satchel charges should destroy them quickly.....
Can try it initially but chance of it working would be pretty low and I would not rest my whole air campaign plan on a scheme like this
Agreed but if you can try it why not.....apart from potentially reputational damage from being the obvious aggressor rather than having a mutual incident escalate out of control...?
 
E version of R27 was not operational till 1990 right ? Or was that operational earlier ?
Range is definitely much improved and also combat resilience given it can carry 10 x AAM

Picture taken in 1987: link
Note the much greater distance between butterfly wings and tail fins between inboard R27s and outboard R27s.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Do we really think the Iraqis or Saudis would fire on a european airliner only slightly off its flight plan with a broken radio and smoke coming out in peacetime? I think the risk to the people involved of being purged in response to placate the European government or oil/defence/banking company chartering the flight might be very serious?

We are only talking about 3+ AWACS and tankers ie large fragile aircraft parked outside, even a few commandos with M72s/RPG7s/Charlie G (even better if they have TOW type system) from a distance might hit them sufficiently to stop them flying for a few days? If they actually get right to them then incendiaries and satchel charges should destroy them quickly.....
Agreed but if you can try it why not.....apart from potentially reputational damage from being the obvious aggressor rather than having a mutual incident escalate out of control...?
Yes definitely can try it , but dont bet on it succeeding,
But I was more interested in your opinion regarding possibilities to defeat F15 in the air
Iraqi pilots used a "giraffe "tactic against F14 and produced mixed results with mig25 and mig23 , was thinking if this would work with f15
 
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Yes definitely can try it , but dont bet on it succeeding,
But I was more interested in your opinion regarding possibilities to defeat F15 in the air
Iraqi pilots used a "giraffe "tactic against F14 and produced mixed results with mig25 and mig23 , was thinking if this would work with f15
The F14 was a different problem because the Iranians used them conservatively and took advantage of its long range BVR capabilities.
Given the assimetric numbers in the OP, A will need to use its F15 aggressively to stop multiple attacks. That's why I suggested using "circus" tatics like the RAF did over France (with not very impressive results, but there was no BVR those days.)
 

SsgtC

Banned
Yes definitely can try it , but dont bet on it succeeding,
But I was more interested in your opinion regarding possibilities to defeat F15 in the air
Iraqi pilots used a "giraffe "tactic against F14 and produced mixed results with mig25 and mig23 , was thinking if this would work with f15
IIRC, that was also when the -14s were shooting at them with Phoenix missiles which were designed and optimized for use against bombers, not against realitively maneuverable fighters.
 
Thanks, where did you find this?

Back in late 1980s, I was reading the ex-Yu army magazine 'Front' (and 'Narodna Armija', of course). So I've remembered that they reprinted the photos of the spanking new Soviet fighter, the Su 27, taken by Norwegian RAF pilots.

So, 30+ years later, I've used internet to locate the stuff.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Yeah sorry typo

F15 in 1982 are limited to firing SARH missiles
I.e one target at a time mostly and radar has to paint the target until impact

Can numerical superiority be used to exploit that ? If so how ?
Zooms and boom with the Foxbats
 

Khanzeer

Banned
IIRC, that was also when the -14s were shooting at them with Phoenix missiles which were designed and optimized for use against bombers, not against realitively maneuverable fighters.
Maybe but the Aim54 was ARH and Aim7 are all SARH so both have their pros and cons
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Zooms and boom with the Foxbats
2 examples of a more than 1 vs 1 foxbat eagle confrontation is the
Jan 19 battle
And samura battle both in 1991

First one Jan 19 one I think was 2 vs 2
the foxbats didn't get a single shot, both foxbats were lost

Samura battle I think was 4 eagle vs 2 foxbats
And result was 1 eagle damaged
None shot down as erroneously claimed by Iraqis

Based on this meager information, would probably need 3 to 1 superiority by foxbats to get a reasonable chance to kill f15?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
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2 examples of a more than 1 vs 1 foxbat eagle confrontation is the
Jan 19 battle
And samura battle both in 1991

First one Jan 19 one I think was 2 vs 2
the foxbats didn't get a single shot, both foxbats were lost

Samura battle I think was 4 eagle vs 2 foxbats
And result was 1 eagle damaged
None shot down as erroneously claimed by Iraqis

Based on this meager information, would probably need 3 to 1 superiority by foxbats to get a reasonable chance to kill f15?
You crippled the Eagle's. All they have are heat-seekers. The Foxbats will still have Acrid, Apex and Archer. The MiGs have a 200 knot speed advantage and can launch from multiple axes starting at 50 miles out. The conditions put the F-15s into a scenario where they are trying to do a tail chase on the fastest acknowledged aircraft in service today.
 
Why didn’t someone invent towed decoys in the age of SARH missiles? Seems that would have flipped the tables on the F-15C, especially if you have Archers for the merge.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Maybe but the Aim54 was ARH and Aim7 are all SARH so both have their pros and cons
The Phoenix was only active radar homing during terminal guidance. It still required midcourse guidance corrections from the launching aircraft for targets outside the range of the missile's onboard seeker head.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
The Phoenix was only active radar homing during terminal guidance. It still required midcourse guidance corrections from the launching aircraft for targets outside the range of the missile's onboard seeker head.
Interesting I thought R33 had only terminal active radar homing and was otherwise SARH
Thanks
 

Khanzeer

Banned
You crippled the Eagle's. All they have are heat-seekers. The Foxbats will still have Acrid, Apex and Archer. The MiGs have a 200 knot speed advantage and can launch from multiple axes starting at 50 miles out. The conditions put the F-15s into a scenario where they are trying to do a tail chase on the fastest acknowledged aircraft in service today.
Archer is not operational until 1983? and likely not available in huge numbers till 87 or so I'm assuming
Foxbats never carried archers or apex IMHO
 

SsgtC

Banned
Interesting I thought R33 had only terminal active radar homing and was otherwise SARH
Thanks
You're welcome. The biggest advance with the AIM-54 was the fact that you guide, I think, 4 individual missiles simultaneously. The F-14 could rotate it's radar between multiple missiles sending them each a burst of information on their target's current location
 

Khanzeer

Banned
You're welcome. The biggest advance with the AIM-54 was the fact that you guide, I think, 4 individual missiles simultaneously. The F-14 could rotate it's radar between multiple missiles sending them each a burst of information on their target's current location
True and Foxhound can do the same if I'm not mistaken
 

CalBear

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Monthly Donor
Archer is not operational until 1983? and likely not available in huge numbers till 87 or so I'm assuming
Foxbats never carried archers or apex IMHO
I can't say for certain, but the missiles were specifically designed to include the Foxbat.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Why didn’t someone invent towed decoys in the age of SARH missiles? Seems that would have flipped the tables on the F-15C, especially if you have Archers for the merge.
Because cables trailing from an aircraft at MACH 2 are contraindicated.
 
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