Challenge : Contest air superiority from F-15C

Let's assume Soviet Spec PD
Then they have long range radar designed to work through counter measures and with look down shoot down capability. That allows for the option to perform RAF WW2 circus. Send in four MiG 23 to lure in the F15, engage them at long range with multiple AAMs.
The 23 are the bait (never engage an F15 in any 23 other than a MLD and even then...) and the 25 are the killers.
 
Commando raid. Yep.

Can't beat their pilots in the air?

Kill them when they are relaxing in the tub.

As for the aircraft and supporting facilities attack them with small units armed with Mortars / rockets (or a full bodied 'SAS' style airfield assault but that might be harder to arrange and keep secret etc)

Have some of the units delay their attacks so as the first units are destroyed / retreated etc the attacks continue

The disruption would put a crimp on air ops even without actually causing damage to aircraft.
In the 80 the Soviets were expected to perform this style of ops not only against pilots, but also against other key personnel.
I remember an exercise when I was asked by a very senior officer (I was running the ops cell) what would happen if clandestine agents killed so and so. I said "That would work out well for us. With Gen A and Gen B dead Col X and I would be running things, and we are actually good"
That didn't went down well with the top brass...
 
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I would say even the mig29A/C was no better against the F15
Up close the 29 (specially with later AAM) was a match for anything in its time. The 29 lacked range, but could turn with the best and was said to be extremely good in a gunfight
 
In the 80 the Soviets were expected to perform this style of ops not only against pilots, but also against other kill personnel.
I remember an exercise when I was asked by a very senior officer (I was running the ops cell) what would happen if soviet agents killed so and so. I said "That would work out well for us. With Gen A and Gen B dead Col X and I would be running things, and we are actually good"
That didn't went down well with the top brass...

It would improve moral LOL

I do recall a story I was once told that once during the cold war many of the active Norwegian Air Force Pilots were all visited by 'door to door' salesmen - I cannot recall the exact reason for it but Russia wanted to send a message - 'we know where you live'
 
It would improve moral LOL

I do recall a story I was once told that once during the cold war many of the active Norwegian Air Force Pilots were all visited by 'door to door' salesmen - I cannot recall the exact reason for it but Russia wanted to send a message - 'we know where you live'
In Portugal with a large active communist party with strong ties to Moscow we were pretty sure they knew were we all lived.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Up close the 29 (specially with later AAM) was a match for anything in its time. The 29 lacked range, but could turn with the best and was said to be extremely good in a gunfight
True but in BVR , mig31/25 are still the best options to take on f15 even with the arrival of su27 in 1986 , which is essentially a mig29 with more BVR missiles but qualitatively no different
 
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True but in BVR , mig31/25 are still the best options to take on f15 even with the arrival of su27 in 1986 , which is essentially a mig29 with more BVR missiles but qualitatively no different
The Su27 is more than just a bigger MiG29. Early MiG 29 were interim aircraft, built in a hurry to overcome a too wide quality gap with NATO. The real 29 was expected to be the M advanced multirole model. The Su27, even the early ones, was a more mature aircraft from the start and better balanced.
The MiG 31 is a pure BVR interceptor, so naturally it beats the contemporary Su27 in that role.
 
True but in BVR , mig31/25 are still the best options to take on f15 even with the arrival of su27 in 1986 , which is essentially a mig29 with more BVR missiles but qualitatively no different

Su 27 was a much better fighter than MiG 29 in 1980s - range was excellent (pictures of Su 27 with drop tanks are as rare as hen's teeth), it could carry not just more missiles but also the 'E' subtypes of the R-27 with approximately twice the range. Bigger radar aerial will improve range of radar.

Too bad the MiG 29 was not conceived around a single engine.
 
Make all efforts to take out the AWACs, 3 isn't a big enough number to have one in the air constantly, so destroying even one will put a big hole in the enemies capabilities.
I'm thinking it's more useful to use the strikers in a suicidal mission
Crashing their sukhoi and migs in f15 shelters , they can trade one for one aircraft
If we are allowed to start the war with a suicide mission, what about using a regional airliner like a Fokker F27 Friendship?

Buy it covertly from a third nation charter airline and don't repaint it, fly it at night to one of your more discrete hangars....

Fit it with a smoke canister in one engine and some air to ground weapons.... (cheap easy to fit 20mm pods...., Anti runway cluster bombs in wheel wells..., rockets pods and maybe guns through side doors....? Not sure how easy it would be to disguise the pods but maybe fit them as extra fuel tanks as a fighter pilot isn't going to shoot at an airliner with extra fuel he doesn't know the exact type that well......)

Fly to the main base via a route that makes it look like a third nation charter flight.....

PAN, PAN, PAN....... we have an engine fire we need to divert to this nice long runway....(just happens to be your main AWAC base)

Start the war by taking out the large AWACS and Tankers that cant fit in most shelters anyway and probably a few F15s just sitting outside in peacetime.....

This would almost certainly be a suicide mission, especially if they sent up an F15/F5 to escort you (how likley is that depending on alert state pre 911?) in but you would probably get at least one pass over in peacetime.... (maybe fit a rearward firing sidewinder/20mm gun to trick the F15 to come in and look at the landing gear or smoke coming out of the engine)


That or just land and then release a group of commandos to attack the base 40 guys attacking with surprise might do a lot if the air force guards are just a few bored conscripts at 11pm?
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
The Su27 is more than just a bigger MiG29. Early MiG 29 were interim aircraft, built in a hurry to overcome a too wide quality gap with NATO. The real 29 was expected to be the M advanced multirole model. The Su27, even the early ones, was a more mature aircraft from the start and better balanced.
The MiG 31 is a pure BVR interceptor, so naturally it beats the contemporary Su27 in that role.
Flanders radars still had kinks to be worked out so their radar was no better than fulcrum in the 1986 to 1990 period from what I've read
Plus numbers matter by end of 1987 there are only 120 flankers, by end of 1988 there are 200 and by end of 1989 approx 300
By that time in 1988 there are over 450 fulcrum and 700+ fulcrum by end of 1989
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
Su 27 was a much better fighter than MiG 29 in 1980s - range was excellent (pictures of Su 27 with drop tanks are as rare as hen's teeth), it could carry not just more missiles but also the 'E' subtypes of the R-27 with approximately twice the range. Bigger radar aerial will improve range of radar.

Too bad the MiG 29 was not conceived around a single engine.
E version of R27 was not operational till 1990 right ? Or was that operational earlier ?
Range is definitely much improved and also combat resilience given it can carry 10 x AAM
 

Khanzeer

Banned
If we are allowed to start the war with a suicide mission, what about using a regional airliner like a Fokker F27 Friendship?

By it covertly from a third nation charter airline and don't repaint it, fly it at night to one of your more discrete hangars....

Fit it with a smoke canister in one engine and some air to ground weapons.... (cheap easy to fit 20mm pods...., Anti runway cluster bombs in wheel wells..., rockets pods and maybe guns through side doors....? Not sure how easy it would be to disguise the pods but maybe fit them as extra fuel tanks as a fighter pilot isn't going to shoot at an airliner with extra fuel he doesn't know the exact type that well......)

Fly to the main base via a route that makes it look like a third nation charter flight.....

PAN, PAN, PAN....... we have an engine fire we need to divert to this nice long runway....(just happens to be your main AWAC base)

Start the war by taking out the large AWACS and Tankers that cant fit in most shelters anyway and probably a few F15s just sitting outside in peacetime.....

This would almost certainly be a suicide mission, especially if they sent up an F15/F5 to escort you (how likley is that depending on alert state pre 911?) in but you would probably get at least one pass over in peacetime.... (maybe fit a rearward firing sidewinder/20mm gun to trick the F15 to come in and look at the landing gear or smoke coming out of the engine)


That or just land and then release a group of commandos to attack the base 40 guys attacking with surprise might do a lot if the air force guards are just a few bored conscripts at 11pm?
F27 can be shot down by a blimp
Su17 and mig23bn going high speed at low level accompanied by jamming planes would be far more survivable even against first line interceptors
 
F27 can be shot down by a blimp
Su17 and mig23bn going high speed at low level accompanied by jamming planes would be far more survivable even against first line interceptors
Trojan Horse. They don't know they should shot it.
 
F27 can be shot down by a blimp
Yes but a F27 painted in the livery of say a minor european airline with smoke coming out of an engine flying in peacetime would be a very "interesting" call for a Iraqi/Saudi fighter pilot or SAM controller to make...... do you shoot down potentially 40-50 civilians from a range of governments that might react badly and get you handed over or executed to placate them...
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
Trojan Horse. They don't know they should shot it.
Both Iraqis or Saudis have no qualms I'm pretty sure plus 40 or so commandoes are hardly going to make a dent
Can try it initially but chance of it working would be pretty low and I would not rest my whole air campaign plan on a scheme like this
 
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