Challenge : Contest air superiority from F-15C

Year 1982

political situation :
Country A
rich
geographically fast , mostly flatlands semi arid terrain
on the defensive
small population
wide distances between major strategic areas

airforce
42 F-15C ( AIM-9P/AIM-7E/F) backed up by 3 AWACS and tankers
no strike aircraft
small number of F-5E as secondary fighters ( 50)

Country B
rich but only 1/3 as much as A
long land border with A
same topography
much larger population
on the offensive
goal is to deliver airstrikes against the vital strategic targets close to the border ( but still within reach of your aircraft)
And to launch a limited ground invasion of A to intimidate and scare its population and seize territory as a bargaining chip

airforce
55 Mig-25 PD (R-40M)
126 Mig-23 MF ( R-23/R-60)
150 + Mig-21
100 Su-17/Su-24/Mig-23BN

pilot capability is the same for both sides
f-15 has only been operational with country A for only a few months
Country B army is 4 times the size of A and have a much bigger arsenal of SAMs

You are the airforce commander of country B
You realize you cannot with your force defeat the F-15 or challenge its total superority but what tactics can you adopt to

1- help your attackers evade the F-15s
2- Minimize the losses amongst your fighters
3- Still be able to support a limited ground invasion and deliver some strikes at key strategic facilities

thanks
Does either country have modern (for 1982) AAM's ? In particular does country A have all aspect Side winders ?

Is there a hard limit on the number of AAM's, spare parts, fuel etc for either side ?

Does either country have hardened shelters for their aircraft, dedicated run way repair teams etc ?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Does either country have modern (for 1982) AAM's ? In particular does country A have all aspect Side winders ?

Is there a hard limit on the number of AAM's, spare parts, fuel etc for either side ?

Does either country have hardened shelters for their aircraft, dedicated run way repair teams etc ?
ive listed the AAM next to the fighters

no limit of resupply for country A but think saudi arabia , thats how its re-supply logistics and maintainence will be

country A and B has hardened shelters

im not sure about repair teams
 
ive listed the AAM next to the fighters

no limit of resupply for country A but think saudi arabia , thats how its re-supply logistics and maintainence will be

country A and B has hardened shelters

im not sure about repair teams

Thanks
What AAM's do country A's F5E's have ?

Also does country A have all aspect AIM9p's (sorry I don't know if the all aspect variants of the Aim9P were in service in 1982 ?)

Edit to add:
Assuming country A doesn't have all aspect AIM9's,

My suggestion to country B is to fly large air strikes against targets that country A considers important enough to likely commit large numbers of their fighters against your strikes. The pilots of country B's Mig 21's should try and engage their opponents in close range dog fights. The other fighters should mostly take BVR shots at first.

Basically try and grind down the Air Force of country A.
 
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SsgtC

Banned
Thanks
What AAM's do country A's F5E's have ?

Also does country A have all aspect AIM9p's (sorry I don't know if the all aspect variants of the Aim9P were in service in 1982 ?)

Edit to add:
Assuming country A doesn't have all aspect AIM9's,

My suggestion to country B is to fly large air strikes against targets that country A considers important enough to likely commit large numbers of their fighters against your strikes. The pilots of country B's Mig 21's should try and engage their opponents in close range dog fights. The other fighters should mostly take BVR shots at first.

Basically try and grind down the Air Force of country A.
The AIM-9L was the first all aspect variant of the Sidewinder. And it was in full production by 1977. So they could have it as long as A is willing to pony up the bucks for it

Edit: assuming A's F-5s are supplied by the US, or at least through the US, they should have -9L Sidewinders too
 
The AIM-9L was the first all aspect variant of the Sidewinder. And it was in full production by 1977. So they could have it as long as A is willing to pony up the bucks for it
Yep... And I am thinking any nation buying F15's is probably going to want all aspect sidewinders to go with them. But the OP said the F15's had AIM9p's and didn't say what type. My understanding is some were all aspect and some were not :) And to recap I am not sure about when the various sub models came into service.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Yes precisely I have no accurate info on how many P or L were in service by 1982
Stocks of L were limited even for NATO airforces even until mid 80s per Tom coopers forum
 
Yes precisely I have no accurate info on how many P or L were in service by 1982
Stocks of L were limited even for NATO airforces even until mid 80s per Tom coopers forum

The British took the Ls south in 1982 but went to lengths to ensure that their full 'NATO' stocks of this weapon could be rapidly replenished by the USA
 

SsgtC

Banned
How effective could the f15 s be in CAS or strike roles w/o PGMs?
Marginal, at best. Remember, until the Strike Eagle was developed, the F-15's guiding mantra was, "not a pound for air to ground." Though the APG-63 was a very capable attack radar, idk if the -15C even had the software to use it in a ground attack role. I'm not even sure if the C model could employ multiple ejector racks
 
Yes precisely I have no accurate info on how many P or L were in service by 1982
Stocks of L were limited even for NATO airforces even until mid 80s per Tom coopers forum

I'm curious what promoted you to choose the P model for this thread ?
 

cpip

Gone Fishin'
Yes precisely I have no accurate info on how many P or L were in service by 1982
Stocks of L were limited even for NATO airforces even until mid 80s per Tom coopers forum

Doing some digging, it looks like Reagan authorized the sale of Limas in the same package as the AWACS:
The New York Times on 1 October 1981 said:
On a technical level the Congress will debate and vote on a package that includes the five Awacs planes; six KC-707 aerial refueling tanker aircraft, with an option for Saudi Arabia to buy two more; 1,117 advanced AIM 9-L Sidewinder air-to-air missiles for previously purchased Saudi F-15 fighter planes; 101 pairs of ''conformal fuel tanks'' that fit snugly to the fuselage of an F-15, greatly extending its range and combat endurance without greatly degrading its acceleration and performance; 22 ground radar stations, and an unusually large inventory of spare parts and support equipment.

So "Country A", assuming we're still looking at the Saudis as the model, has all-aspect Sidewinders.
 

cpip

Gone Fishin'
i thought that was the most capable variant then before L

It's also one of the most commonly exported models (the AIM-9J as well, but for the purposes of this exercise they're similar enough).

It may be, given the stockpiles, that the F-5Es remain equipped with AIM-9P while the AIM-9Ls go to the F-15C Eagles in this instance.
 

SsgtC

Banned
It's also one of the most commonly exported models (the AIM-9J as well, but for the purposes of this exercise they're similar enough).

It may be, given the stockpiles, that the F-5Es remain equipped with AIM-9P while the AIM-9Ls go to the F-15C Eagles in this instance.
If that's the case, depending on which version of the -9P they have, it could also be all aspect
 
A combined attack in massive force on day one. Everything that can fly is in the air going for the airfields, the AWACS and the tankers. I want to catch them on the ground. I also want fuel, ammunition, command, communication, transport and radar facilities hit hard. At the same time my army has to crash over the border and chew up as much of the opposition as it can and drive as fast as possible towards the capital. They need to force the army commanders to scream for air support pulling more aircraft into a SAM kill zone. They need to get the politicians starting to panic and flee for the hills.


Oh and I would be on the phone to my fraternal socialist brothers in the Kremlin for some highly skilled "advisors", the most recent weapons, electronic counter measures, intelligence and satellite support BEFORE all this started. I would also like them to rustle up some pretext for the conflict and distract the security council.

Good evening, this is the BBC news at 9pm read by John Simpson and Sue Lawley.

We are receiving reports that military forces of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Akazbia have invaded the neighboring country of South Ostina . Reuters is reporting that there have been massed air battles in the north of the country and that ground troops have crossed the border in force in what appears to be an escalation of the long running border dispute between the two countries. Agence France-Presse are quoting a communique from a Colonel Limbotto stating that the Republic of Akazbia can no longer stand by and watch as the human rights of ethnic Akazbians are betrayed by the oppressive Ostrinian regime led by the corrupt President Jonno. Statements from both the Foreign Office and the United Nations have condemned this action and appealed for restraint and calm.

For the latest information we cross live, by telephone, to Martin Bell in the border town of Barronville for an update.

Martin, what can you tell us about the current situation?

(crackle, hiss, pop, squeak) Sue, the situation here is confused. Akazbian forces have attacked in strength and have pushed back the Ostinan border forces and only a desperate stand by Ostinan armourd forces, supported by aircraft, prevented the complete rout of the defenders. We understand that the Ostiains have been pushed back about 20 miles and that the key strategic town of Gaules has been captured by the Akazbians. The fighting has been hard and casualties on both sides are high with burnt out vehicles and aircraft littering highway 1 to the north of the border crossing.

There are also reports of massed air battles in the north of the country, again with high losses on both sides. It is clear that this attack came as a surprise to the Ostians and that despite the technological superiority of their armed forces they have suffered at the hands of the disciplined, Soviet backed Akazbi forces. In particular Akazbi sources are claiming that upto 75% of the Ostian airforce has been destroyed on the ground. This will clearly come as a shock to Washington who have supported President Jonno with arms and aircraft since the revolution in Akazbia in 1978...................
 
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cpip

Gone Fishin'
It's also one of the most commonly exported models (the AIM-9J as well, but for the purposes of this exercise they're similar enough).

It may be, given the stockpiles, that the F-5Es remain equipped with AIM-9P while the AIM-9Ls go to the F-15C Eagles in this instance.

Ah! Found this online; a document from the lobbying group AIPAC discussing Sidewinder inventory. According to this, the AIM-9Ls could not be used on the F-5Es.

I'm having a hard time finding when the AIM-9P-4 (the first all-aspect model) came into service, though.
 
A combined attack in massive force on day one. Everything that can fly is in the air going for the airfields, the AWACS and the tankers. I want to catch them on the ground. I also want fuel, ammunition, command, communication, transport and radar facilities hit hard. At the same time my army has to crash over the border and chew up as much of the opposition as it can and drive as fast as possible towards the capital. They need to force the army commanders to scream for air support pulling more aircraft into a SAM kill zone. They need to get the politicians starting to panic and flee for the hills.


Oh and I would be on the phone to my fraternal socialist brothers in the Kremlin for some highly skilled "advisors", the most recent weapons, electronic counter measures, intelligence and satellite support BEFORE all this started. I would also like them to rustle up some pretext for the conflict and distract the security council.

Good evening, this is the BBC news at 9pm read by John Simpson and Sue Lawley.

We are receiving reports that military forces of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Akazbia have invaded the neighboring country of South Ostina . Reuters is reporting that there have been massed air battles in the north of the country and that ground troops have crossed the border in force in what appears to be an escalation of the long running border dispute between the two countries. Agence France-Presse are quoting a communique from a Colonel Limbotto stating that the Republic of Akazbia can no longer stand by and watch as the human rights of ethnic Akazbians are betrayed by the oppressive Ostrinian regime led by the corrupt President Jonno. Statements from both the Foreign Office and the United Nations have condemned this action and appealed for restraint and calm.

For the latest information we cross live, by telephone, to Martin Bell in the border town of Barronville for an update.

Martin, what can you tell us about the current situation?

(crackle, hiss, pop, squeak) Sue, the situation here is confused. Akazbian forces have attacked in strength and have pushed back the Ostinan border forces and only a desperate stand by Ostinan armourd forces, supported by aircraft, prevented the complete rout of the defenders. We understand that the Ostiains have been pushed back about 20 miles and that the key strategic town of Gaules has been captured by the Akazbians. The fighting has been hard and casualties on both sides are high with burnt out vehicles and aircraft littering highway 1 to the north of the border crossing.

There are also reports of massed air battles in the north of the country, again with high losses on both sides. It is clear that this attack came as a surprise to the Ostians and that despite the technological superiority of their armed forces they have suffered at the hands of the disciplined, Soviet backed Akazbi forces. In particular Akazbi sources are claiming that upto 75% of the Ostian airforce has been destroyed on the ground. This will clearly come as a shock to Washington who have supported President Jonno with arms and aircraft since the revolution in Akazbia in 1978...................
I like this...

One minor quibble. I am thinking the existence of hardened air craft shelters may make destroying aircraft on the ground in large numbers problematic ?
 
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