Challenge: Christian Middle East, post Mohammed's death

Leo Caesius

Banned
I dunno, Zoroastrianism just seems so primitive compared to the "Big Boys" of Abraham and the Dharma. Maybe that's just an artifact that to survive this long those religions would have to be refined but... I know all religions have cliches but Zoroastrianism seems so unbelievably cliched and quaint. Just my impression and it's probably wrong.
Well, our history of religions curricula just don't do it justice, really. They tend to simplify everything and, in the process, misrepresent everything. You should really read some Zoroastrian religious texts to get a better sense of the faith. You can find some older translations of the primary texts at avesta.org.
 

Keenir

Banned
I dunno, Zoroastrianism just seems so primitive compared to the "Big Boys" of Abraham and the Dharma.
but Zoroastrianism seems so unbelievably cliched and quaint.

oh yeah, "God is God except when He's God" is so much more superior than "There are two Gods, but both are inferior to The Great God"

they're both trinities if you don't look carefully!


(where's the cliche? that there's a devil - is that it?)
 

wormyguy

Banned
The only case of a Muslim-majority country being turned back into a Christian one in all of history is the re-conversion of Spain
Lebanon (by the crusaders, no less), Kazakhstan (it was never originally Christian), Bulgaria, most of sub-saharan Africa, Sicily, the Crimea, probably several others I'm not thinking of.
 
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I think the big question here is still the possibility of a Christian Middle East. Unfortunately , this is too tied up with the sentiments of the poster towards Christianity itself. Those with a generally hostile stance towards Christianity would argue that Christianity in the Middle East was unlikely to expand beyond Mesopotamia , or even that Christianity would inevitably be supplanted in the Middle East by another faith , either Manchiesm , Zoroastism ( quite ASB considering that it was a highly nationalistic religion ) or Buddhism ( who in OTL was supplanted by the other Monotheistic faith , Islam in Central Asia. )

Those who generally favor Christianity on the other hand would prefer to argue that Christianity would penetrate into the Central Asian steppes and eventually into South East Asia as fast or even faster than Islam did in OTL.

It's my opinion that the lack of No Islam timelines is quite a pity , because of the vast number of possibilities that could result from such a massive change. Yes , there is the issue of religious sensitivity here , but it's strange that there are many No Christianity threads , but almost No Islam threads.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
It's my opinion that the lack of No Islam timelines is quite a pity , because of the vast number of possibilities that could result from such a massive change. Yes , there is the issue of religious sensitivity here , but it's strange that there are many No Christianity threads , but almost No Islam threads.
That's absolutely not true. "No Islam" is just about the biggest AH cliche after the American Revolutionary War, the American Civil War, and WW2. By my estimate, TLs in which Islam is butterflied away, stillborn, or rolled back come up on average once every two or three months, and some last for nearly that amount of time before dying down (Mecca is destroyed twice a year):

WI No Islam: Affects on Africa

Effects of an unconceived Islam on...

A different way to stop Islam!

Mohammed Makes Islam a form of Judaism

Islam Nonexistant - What Religious Effects?


What if Mohammed existed & unified people, without Islam?

Would no Islam allow Rome to be rebuilt?

Challenge: Butterfly away islam

WI: If Islam never was founded

No Islam

Islam extinguished

Challenge: Islam stays Arab only

Challenge: the pagans turn it around--weaker Islam AND Christianity

Challenge: a weaker Islam

Could Christianity Have flourished without islam?

Modern world with No Islam

Buddhist Persia, Coptic Egypt, Zoroastrian Syria, Cult of Islam.

Turks and Mongols more Hostile to Islam

Double blind: Islam survives

No Islam


No Islam

Islam dies out

It is abundantly obvious (to me at least) that we really don't have much time for "religious sensitivity" here. If we really have an insufficient volume of "No Islam" threads for you (a startling proposition), consider at least that it is not because of Political Correctness but rather a question of resources: there just aren't that many people here who are familiar with the Middle East in Late Antiquity, or dedicated enough to do the research and acquire that familiarity. There aren't enough people familiar with Islam to even begin to understand how the world would be changed in its absence. Heck, there aren't enough interested parties to follow such threads and keep them alive. If you look at the links above, you'll see the same old names reheating cold rice, as the Chinese say.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I strongly disagree with the idea that Zoroastrianism was a "nationalistic" religion. If you do some research, you find that, while it was predominant amongst Iranic peoples, it still had a very strong base in communities in Central and South Asia that were not necessarily of Iranic descent. Indeed, the majority of Zoroastrians today live in India, though there are still (relatively) large communities in Central Asia, Pakistan, and Iran.

I also reject the idea that Zoroastrianism is "primitive" when compared to the Abrahamic religions. Just because its older doesn't make it primitive. Indeed, most agree that Zoroastrianism had an immense impact on the early development of the Abrahamic faiths. Concepts like heaven and hell, a virgin-born savior (or really the concept of a savior, period), a day of judgment, etc., etc., were all originally Zoroastrian tenents that were refined over the centuries and heavily influenced the early desert cults that would blossom into the "Big Boys" of the Abrahamic faiths (which in itself is almost borderline ASB).

We should also remember that Manichaeism was basically just a gnostic offshoot of Zoroastrianism, though was, like many gnostic sects, persecuted by the Mother Faith.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Yes , there is the issue of religious sensitivity here , but it's strange that there are many No Christianity threads , but almost No Islam threads.

Leo's excellent rebuttal of this aside, that's probably because most (sane/logical) "No Christianity" TLs will butterfly Islam away as well. So really, any sensible "No Christianity" thread will also become a "No Islam" thread.
 

Keenir

Banned
I think the big question here is still the possibility of a Christian Middle East. Unfortunately , this is too tied up with the sentiments of the poster towards Christianity itself. Those with a generally hostile stance towards Christianity would argue that Christianity in the Middle East was unlikely to expand beyond Mesopotamia , or even that Christianity would inevitably be supplanted in the Middle East by another faith , either Manchiesm , Zoroastism ( quite ASB considering that it was a highly nationalistic religion ) or Buddhism ( who in OTL was supplanted by the other Monotheistic faith , Islam in Central Asia. )

careful, you don't want to suggest that India and Indonesia no longer have Buddhists, do you?
 
There is a wide variety of potential consequences of a Christian Middle East - and Advernt is right in so far as the choice of a particular sequence of events is arbitrary and therefore often governed by taste and personal preference.

For my part, it seems most interesting if Christianity does not expand further to dominate Persia. If Persia turns towards Manichaeism, that may make a really thrilling situation. I suppose that Christian-Mainchaean hostility might excel OTL's Christian-Muslim adverarities because they are (arguably) closer to each other. But then, I might be blinded by OTL in this question ...

A lot depends on what belief the conqueror Middle-Asian peoples adopt to.

Although Buddhism is an influencial lore in this time and region, I estimate its potential to become a majority faith in a country as relatively low; IOTL, it managed to only in a couple of relatively sparsely populated areas. However, Buddhism did spread a lot to become a strong minority religion in many places, and if Islam does not play a major part East of the Caspian Sea, then it will certainly win more followers in South Asia.

However, we should nevertheless also keep in mind that Asia can also live on without the predominance of one or few large religions. And if at some point one religion spreads widely and unites many separated peoples, it is completely possible that that is one existing in OTL, but completely forgotten by lack of witnesses ...
 
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