Challenge: An Italian Caliphate

Your challenge is to make a caliphate, much like Al-Andalus, but centered in Italy. The butterfly can be as far back as the year 0 , but no later than 1550. Extra points if it survives to the present day.
 
An Italian Caliphate with a pre-Islam POD? Isn't there a likelihood that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would be butterflied away in such a case?

I could see an expansion of the Sicilian Muslims into southern Italy during the Dark Ages, but it'd be very hard to them to expand into Lombardy and I doubt the hypothetical Neapolitan Muslims would get too much organized outside help. The chances, then, of a Caliphate being formed as opposed to an Emirate or anything else are very slim.
 
Indeed but...Lets take it for what it should be- how to get a muslim Italy of any sort and of course a POD that ensures there is Islam is a given
 
Hmm, there was another thread a while ago about Robert Guiscard conquering part of Greece rather than Southern Italy. Perhaps the POD could be the Normans invading Greece and setting up a realm there rather than in Apulia. The rapidly weakening Byzantine Empire then loses its lands in Southern Italy to Muslims from Sicily.

It's a start.
 
The first thing that leaps to mind would be to strengthen the Arabs' hands at the First Arab Siege of Constantinople by enough that the Byzantines would offer major territorial concessions (including southern Italy) as part of a ransom to end the siege. Probably pretty unlikely, though. More likely either the Arabs would press on to capture Constantinople, or the ransom would be land in Anatolia.
 
I could see an expansion of the Sicilian Muslims into southern Italy during the Dark Ages, but it'd be very hard to them to expand into Lombardy and I doubt the hypothetical Neapolitan Muslims would get too much organized outside help. The chances, then, of a Caliphate being formed as opposed to an Emirate or anything else are very slim.
This is basically OTL. From the ninth century on, Sicily was an Arab-controlled island. The Saracens were a significant force in southern Italy for centuries. Around 870 they almost captured Benevento, and the possibilty of an all-Muslim south was a very real possibility. Most of the principalities south of the Papal States were basically Muslim vassals at this point.
Rome was sacked in ~840 (IIRC), and Saracen raids on northern Italy were not unheard of.

So it seems to me that in the twilight of Carolingian power, a significant Arab state in Italy to arise in the later ninth century. As you do not specify it has to include all of Italy, one could cheat and create what amounts to a Muslim Kingdom of Naples (minus Spoleto and including Sicily).

Now, how to get it to become a caliphate? Not too hard, actually. Just have the Arabs be more successful in the 870s and conquer all of the Lombard duchies. When the Fatimids arise AIOTL (handwave here), they conquer all of Saracen Italy - they conquered Sicily in OTL, so it is definitely possible. Then when the Fatimid Caliphate begins to collapse at some point in the distant future, a member of the royal family flees to al-Ankubartiyah (I have that in my notes as a possibly Arab Lombardy name) and establishes a remnant Fatimid Caliphate ala the Umayyads circa 700 AD.

How does that sound?
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
An idea out of the Blue:
Byzanz secretly aiding an arab army to conquer Rome to get rid of the Pope as religious leader of Christianity.
Probably to fantastic, but I liked the idea enough to post it.
 
This is basically OTL. From the ninth century on, Sicily was an Arab-controlled island. The Saracens were a significant force in southern Italy for centuries. Around 870 they almost captured Benevento, and the possibilty of an all-Muslim south was a very real possibility. Most of the principalities south of the Papal States were basically Muslim vassals at this point.
Rome was sacked in ~840 (IIRC), and Saracen raids on northern Italy were not unheard of.

So it seems to me that in the twilight of Carolingian power, a significant Arab state in Italy to arise in the later ninth century. As you do not specify it has to include all of Italy, one could cheat and create what amounts to a Muslim Kingdom of Naples (minus Spoleto and including Sicily).

Now, how to get it to become a caliphate? Not too hard, actually. Just have the Arabs be more successful in the 870s and conquer all of the Lombard duchies. When the Fatimids arise AIOTL (handwave here), they conquer all of Saracen Italy - they conquered Sicily in OTL, so it is definitely possible. Then when the Fatimid Caliphate begins to collapse at some point in the distant future, a member of the royal family flees to al-Ankubartiyah (I have that in my notes as a possibly Arab Lombardy name) and establishes a remnant Fatimid Caliphate ala the Umayyads circa 700 AD.

How does that sound?

Shia Italy !!!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:

Just make it Romance speaking, then your perfection is served !! ;):cool:

Must.... seek.... non-handwaving.... way... for this..... :eek::eek::cool::cool:
 
Shia Italy !!!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:

Just make it Romance speaking, then your perfection is served !! ;):cool:

Must.... seek.... non-handwaving.... way... for this..... :eek::eek::cool::cool:

I think that it would naturally be Romance speaking. After all, it would be isolated from other Muslim territories, and if the Shia rulers remain considered as enemies by their Sunni successors in North Africa maybe they could promote the use of the local language to create a kind of "national" identity against the followers of the "false" Caliph. What about this idea?
 
Your challenge is to make a caliphate, much like Al-Andalus, but centered in Italy. The butterfly can be as far back as the year 0 , but no later than 1550. Extra points if it survives to the present day.
As mentioned, they has Sicily for a few centuries and the Normans came in only when the place had fallen apart.

One odd thought is that a Hauteville or Hohestaufen south Italy would end up more Arab than Italian in culture (retaining a Muslim and Greek population to a far greater degree than OTL).

HTG
 
I think that it would naturally be Romance speaking. After all, it would be isolated from other Muslim territories, and if the Shia rulers remain considered as enemies by their Sunni successors in North Africa maybe they could promote the use of the local language to create a kind of "national" identity against the followers of the "false" Caliph. What about this idea?
I really don't think national identity matters in any way (until around 1000 years after the time period we are talking about), so isn't relevant. The Fatimid founders were Arabs, they spoke Arabic, and most of their supporters were Berbers who spoke various Berber languages. Southern Italy was cosmopolitan as well: the Lombards spoke various Italian dialects, Greek was spoken, as was Arabic.

Furthermore, I don't think the concept of "natural identity" even existed that long ago, nor do I think was it needed. The Fatimids would not be entirely isolated, as they would retain influence throughout North Africa. Who's to say that the new caliphate would not be Ismaili Shiite as well? One never knows.

But with regards to the language, I do not think the situation would change drastically. The Lombards would continue to speak Italian, although as increasing numbers converted these Al-Ankubarti would learn Arabic as well. The Fatimid remnant bureaucracy would use primarily Arabic. Berber settlement would be reasonably high, introducing that language into the mixer. But over time, as the Al-Ankubarti come to dominate Fatimid politics, there is a possibility of an Italian version of Mozarabic gaining influence. However, Italian Mozarabic might just be restricted to Italo-Lombard Christians living under the Fatimids.

If this shadow-caliphate survives long enough, maybe the Fatimids would fall to an Al-Ankubarti revolt. But that would be centuries off, so I can't begin to speculate.
 
I guess i'll start then.

Fatimid Italy
March Fifteenth, 947
Al-Muizz Lideenillah was terrifically bored. There nothing for him to do that day. All of his friends were unavailable and his dad was busy. So absentmindedly he sat down gazed up at a world map on the wall, which showed Italy and the Fatimids in similar color. "My goodness!" he exclaimed "Italy should be ours!"
 
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